"Qur'an-alone" Muslims tend to regard the sacred months as consecutive (9:2-5). However Rajab and the one before Dhul Hijjah have names connoting obvious choices. If one were to look at the names of the months, the four traditional sacred months would be obvious choices. I have been looking for any historical evidence that they were consecutive (let alone starting from Dhul Hijjah, as many claim).
It is possible to interpret 9:2 as saying: "travel in the land four months (of the year)", just like in 9:36.
Which sacred months do you propose?
I just wanted to brush up because Sunnis have no answer. Here is 2:143 argument:
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Post subject: Re: Sacred Months
Minhaj wrote:
Peace all;
salam brother Minhaj
Minhaj wrote:
"Qur'an-alone" Muslims tend to regard the sacred months as consecutive (9:2-5).
They have an argument, but it is not conclusive for their favour, their main argument through these verses that it is illogical that the 4 months are not consecutives due to the fact that fighting should be stopped in them, they think that this stoppage of fighting cannot be more than once. That is the only argument the aloners have, however stacking in front of their lonely argument whole heap counter arguments. For example, those 4 months were known since the time of Ibrahim, in fact I believe they were established during the time of Ibrahim, so if Muhammad came and changed them, they would have been so many documented arguments in their man made rubbish of hadith at least talking about it, something like the change of Qiblah for example. This non fighting in these 4 months were even observed by the kafirs and mushrikoon before Islam.
Minhaj wrote:
However Rajab and the one before Dhul Hijjah have names connoting obvious choices.
Choosing based on months names is I am afraid, baseless.
Minhaj wrote:
If one were to look at the names of the months, the four traditional sacred months would be obvious choices. I have been looking for any historical evidence that they were consecutive (let alone starting from Dhul Hijjah, as many claim).
All the evidences you will find are linking them to Ibarhim then those who followed him.
Minhaj wrote:
It is possible to interpret 9:2 as saying: "travel in the land four months (of the year)", just like in 9:36.
Yes, grammatically and linguistically of course
Minhaj wrote:
Which sacred months do you propose?
The fours already known since the time of Ibrahim, in fact it was established since the time Allah decided to make the year 12 months as stated in 9:36; and certainly the info has been passed to Ibrahim who established the House and prepared it for Hajj.
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Dear bro Minhaj
I have read most of page 17, this guy ibn 'abd al-jabbaar is a hard core Mushrik, he is using a flawed argument that because the old Qiblah was ordained by Allah via Muhammed (assumption), it means we have to take all that massive amount of useless rubbish in their man made rubbish books of crap hadith
You may have noticed that I put between brackets (assumption), because we assume that, in fact there is another assumption, therefore ask that Mushrik to show you the hadith in which we read Muahmmed commanding to follow the old Qiblah before it has changed?
The whole point is this, there is way too much crap in these rubbish man made books of hadith that should make a true believer convinced that these man made books are not divine, consequently there is no onus on that believer to follow these books; simply it is not from Allah, these books worshippers are nothing but filthy Mushrikoon and they don�????�???�??�?�¢??t perceive it.
If that Mushrik ibn 'abd al-jabbaar dares to claim that these rubbish books from Allah, then this is where to corener him by showing him the huge amount of rubbish.
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Dear bro Minhaj
As for 2:143, which is the other thread we discussed, I have to tell you that the verse allows two understandings
1- A logical one according to the circumstances when the verse was revealed (as understood by many sunni Mufasiroon), i.e
We did not make (the change of) the old Qiblah except to test .....
i.e. the words (the change of) are omitted as it is logically understood from the context of pervious verses as well from the same verse.
2- Another logical one accorindg to the literal words (as also understood by many sunni Mufasiroon), i.e.
We did not make the old Qiblah except to test ......
There a huge difference between the two understandings, as the first one which is more logical due to the fact that the Quran uses this style of word omission a lot, as well due to the other logical understating that the test was the change from old Qiblah to the new one
Obviously al-mushrikoon and the hadith worshippers prefer the second understanding because they are struggling to find any verse to validate their man made rubbish books of hadith and make them divine. They are indeed the criminals who want to associate rubbish to Allah; exalted is He above what they prescribe
Here is an online English Tafsir for 2:143
Thus, in the same way that We guided you to it, We appointed you, O community of Muhammad (s), a midmost community, excellent and upright, that you might be witnesses to the people, on the Day of Resurrection, that their messengers delivered [the Message] to them; and that the Messenger might be a witness to you, that he delivered [the Message] to you, and We did not appoint, make, the direction, for you now, the direction, you were facing, that is the Ka�????�???�??�?�¢??ba: the Prophet (s) used to face it in prayer, but when he emigrated he was commanded to face the Holy House [of Jerusalem], in order to win the hearts of the Jews. He prayed in this direction for sixteen or seventeen months before he changed direction; except that We might know, [that it become] manifest knowledge, who followed the Messenger, and believed in him,
The fours already known since the time of Ibrahim, in fact it was established since the time Allah decided to make the year 12 months as stated in 9:36; and certainly the info has been passed to Ibrahim who established the House and prepared it for Hajj.
Salam brother Ahmed;
Well I went to the trouble of responding to ibn 'Abbad's latest post but when I logged in it said i was banned forever. That tafsir you gave was exactly what I was thinking of in the other thread. It is more logical to me. Thanks for the other arguments I will include it and the website.
About the sacred months, I assume you include Rajab (since that is the only one I was confused about). The only other matter I was thinking of was the "months of Hajj". These did not necessarily have to be "sacred months", but they were already known months of Hajj. Do you agree with Shawwal, Dhul Qa'adah and the first ten days of Dhul Hijjah? Ignoring those teachings and focussing on Qur'an-alone, the most logical thing I can think of is Dhul-Qa'ada until Muharram (plural = 3 or more). That would give three months in which Hajj can be performed. Without certainty i would advise people to do it in Dhul Qa'adah and Dhul Hijjah, but not 100% about Muharram. I don't see why not personally.
Thanks for the response again;
Take care
Salaam.
Posted:
Tue 23 Aug, 2011 11:00 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Quote:
The four months already known since the time of Ibrahim, in fact it was established since the time Allah decided to make the year 12 months as stated in 9:36; and certainly the info has been passed to Ibrahim who established the House and prepared it for Hajj.
Minhaj wrote:
Salam brother Ahmed;
Salam brother Minhaj
Minhaj wrote:
Well I went to the trouble of responding to ibn 'Abbad's latest post but when I logged in it said i was banned forever.
The Mushrikoon bro are a bunch of cowards and pussies, I learnt to only expose them on a nuteral ground. On their ground, the outcome is known, permenant ban
Minhaj wrote:
That tafsir you gave was exactly what I was thinking of in the other thread. It is more logical to me. Thanks for the other arguments I will include it and the website.
Actually Arabic Tafsir are more clearer on the issue, do you read Arabic?
Minhaj wrote:
About the sacred months, I assume you include Rajab (since that is the only one I was confused about). The only other matter I was thinking of was the "months of Hajj". These did not necessarily have to be "sacred months", but they were already known months of Hajj. Do you agree with Shawwal, Dhul Qa'adah and the first ten days of Dhul Hijjah?
I actually believe that Hajj can be performed in any of these 4 months, I know it is hard to believe but somehow I believe so according to Quran
Minhaj wrote:
Ignoring those teachings and focussing on Qur'an-alone, the most logical thing I can think of is Dhul-Qa'ada until Muharram (plural = 3 or more). That would give three months in which Hajj can be performed. Without certainty i would advise people to do it in Dhul Qa'adah and Dhul Hijjah, but not 100% about Muharram. I don't see why not personally.
It is a tough call bro, that is why there will never be a conclusive call, knowing the 4 sacred months out of 12 months since the time of Adam cannot be really hard to manipulate by even the devil
Minhaj wrote:
Thanks for the response again;
Take care
Salaam.
No worries mate, and dont be upset about those cowards banning you, you can post threads exposing them in here and I will make sure to pass a link to them, but please be tough not too polite with those arseholes
I actually believe that Hajj can be performed in any of these 4 months, I know it is hard to believe but somehow I believe so according to Quran
I would definitely say so if they were to be considered consecutive. Apparently Rajab was for people who lived a long way away but I don't see the point because there were still plenty of "danger months" about. Moreover I think it was for umrah, but don't know.
Well I personally think Hajj is Hajj, and it would be slightly less complicated if there were not months specifically prescribed for it. Still it seems logical to accept the sacred months, and if "Muslims" were Muslim no-one would have problem if people believed something a bit different (people would still get along).
Quote:
No worries mate, and dont be upset about those cowards banning you, you can post threads exposing them in here and I will make sure to pass a link to them, but please be tough not too polite with those arseholes
Thanks bro I posted it because I went to trouble of writing it. I don't speak or read Arabic I just look and see what works.
I sometimes go hard on them but if I have no time for artistic insults then I just use the logic.
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