Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject: adhaab alqabar - punishment of grave
# is (the idea of) punishment of the grave more baloney from the traditionalists?
## there really seems to be naught from the quran to support it, yet some of the traditions related to it (from both, sunnis and shiites) seem inane enough to be dismissed as more lies!
...so what do peepz in here think about adhaab alqabar/torment of the grave?
Posted:
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 4:28 am
SlaveofAllaah Site Admin
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Posts: 184 Location: Riyadh
Post subject: Re: adhaab alqabar - punishment of grave
So if someone wasnts to dismiss it, i feel its sought of foolishness let it be traditionalists and modernists.
Now i brother THE wanna know the difference between traditionalist and modernists i feel the Quran which was revealed by one, I accept the hadith differences caused but i feel we are causing another sect here by always referring to Sunnis and the Shias.
I myself a so called sunni which i never accept it since before but, what disturbs me more is if we start complaining that the sunnis and the shias are this and that.
Thats one reason, i flinch from most of the topics wrt to shias and sunnis, because point is how are we right and how come they are wrong. Well, i am not saying they are right or wrong but we need evidence to back it up. Yes Quran is there, but we also do agree, there was always the Hadith of the Prophet to show the Quran in practical sense.
Well, they are verses mentioned in the Quran before the so called adhaab alqabar and the most favourite topics of the Aloners. Well seems quite plausible its not there but yes mentioned in teh Quran but really detailed in the hadith well, will dig it out and let you know.
As far as it goes, i definitely agree to adhaab alqabar. Rather then dismissing it without any evidences.
Posted:
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 10:16 pm
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Quote:
slaveofallaah wrote:
So if someone wasnts to dismiss it, i feel its sought of foolishness let it be traditionalists and modernists.
Now i brother THE wanna know the difference between traditionalist and modernists i feel the Quran which was revealed by one, I accept the hadith differences caused but i feel we are causing another sect here by always referring to Sunnis and the Shias.
# i dont know about the modernists, bro!
...as far as the traditionalists go, i mean shiites and sunnis when i use the word! and unless i want to specifically differentiate ahmadiyyas/qadianis, i tend to include them within the sunnis! (-:
Quote:
I myself a so called sunni which i never accept it since before but, what disturbs me more is if we start complaining that the sunnis and the shias are this and that.
# u'r right, bro....it disturbs me as well...albeit a li'l less than it used to a while back! (-:
Quote:
Thats one reason, i flinch from most of the topics wrt to shias and sunnis, because point is how are we right and how come they are wrong. Well, i am not saying they are right or wrong but we need evidence to back it up. Yes Quran is there, but we also do agree, there was always the Hadith of the Prophet to show the Quran in practical sense.
# yups...the only problem is that v cannot be sure about the transmission of the ahadith! (-:
Quote:
Well, they are verses mentioned in the Quran before the so called adhaab alqabar and the most favourite topics of the Aloners. Well seems quite plausible its not there but yes mentioned in teh Quran but really detailed in the hadith well, will dig it out and let you know.
# actually, it would seem that the surah attakathur comes pretty close to what v could call "proof" in support of adhaab alqabr...but...whether it come close enough is what i am not sure about! (-:
Quote:
As far as it goes, i definitely agree to adhaab alqabar. Rather then dismissing it without any evidences.
# 1 reason i dismiss adhab alqabr, based on what traditions say, is the emphasis on snakes and scorpions! i ll try to find and post those ahadith which make me feel adhab alqabr is a figment of imagination rather than a reality! (-:
# take care, bro! (-:
Posted:
Tue 20 Mar, 2007 12:30 am
SlaveofAllaah Site Admin
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Posts: 184 Location: Riyadh
Post subject:
Quote:
# 1 reason i dismiss adhab alqabr, based on what traditions say, is the emphasis on snakes and scorpions! i ll try to find and post those ahadith which make me feel adhab alqabr is a figment of imagination rather than a reality! (-:
# take care, bro!
I do have doubts regarding all these but I do believe in the Questions by the angels but let me also confirm, as I also do not have enough evidences to prove my claim. In the sense i can get the hadith but to do a complete scientific hadith a no no.
Posted:
Wed 21 Mar, 2007 6:53 pm
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
# okayz, bro, i did manage to get a couple of ahadith which talk about snakes and fire and crushed ribs in the grave, but the majority of others i havent been able to find references to, yet; so i ll keep searching, and if u, or anybody else, can proffer them, it will be appreciated!
my major problem is that grave is understood as being a place beneath the sod, and the adhaab alqabr a punishment meted out therein -- and i think i am not the only one who finds this pretty tough to comprehend!
## in the meanwhile - i have found a couple of ahadith which somehow the sunnis dont find anything wrong with, but if were to be examined, would open up a can of worms:
sahih muslim
Book 004, Number 1212:
'A'isha reported: The Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) entered my house when a Jewess was with me and she was saying: Do you know that you would be put to trial in the grave? The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) trembled (on hearing this) and said: It is the Jews only who would-be put to trial. 'A'isha said: We passed some nights and then the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Do you know that it has been revealed to me:" You would be put to trial in the grave"? 'A'isha said: 1 heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) seeking refuge from the torment of the grave after this.
Book 004, Number 1214:
'A'isha reported: There came to me two old women from the old Jewesses of Medina and said: The people of the grave are tormented in their graves. I contradicted them and I did not deem it proper to testify them. They went away and the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) came to me and I said to him: Messenger of Allah I there came to me two old women from the old Jewesses of Medina and asserted that the people of the graves would be tormented therein. He (the Prophet) said: They told the truth; they would be tormented (so much) that the animals would listen to it. She ('A'isha) said: Never did I see him (the Holy Prophet) afterwards but seeking refuge from the torment of the grave in prayer.
# each of these in itself should be a problem to anybody who accepts it, and taken together they are anything but less ridiculous; i wont comment on them cuz i think it's pretty obvious as to what is wrong with them, but if anybody wants i 'll try to explan why i say these ahadith are ridiculous!
# take care, buddy! (-:
Posted:
Wed 21 Mar, 2007 8:23 pm
SlaveofAllaah Site Admin
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject: Re:
I wonder, whats the problem. What I am looking it pray to Allaah to save us from the torment of the Grave. Well, this topic now makes me a little better. As i feel i should get involved more, as i said earlier things are getting tough and I am being more dunyafied.
Keep it coming bro.
Posted:
Thu 22 Mar, 2007 4:28 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
slaveofallaah wrote:
I wonder, whats the problem. What I am looking it pray to Allaah to save us from the torment of the Grave.
# the problem, i think, is that they contradict each other in such a way that somebody becomes a liar!
...v can see that these 2 ahadith are talking of different incidents - let's suppose that the incident in hadith #1212 took place before the 1 mentioned in #1214!
Book 004, Number 1212:
'A'isha reported: The Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) entered my house when a Jewess was with me and she was saying: Do you know that you would be put to trial in the grave? The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) trembled (on hearing this) and said: It is the Jews only who would-be put to trial. 'A'isha said: We passed some nights and then the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Do you know that it has been revealed to me:" You would be put to trial in the grave"? 'A'isha said: 1 heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) seeking refuge from the torment of the grave after this.
# so v see that after the incident aisha knew about the trial in graves; yet, when the two jewesses (in #1214) talked about the trial in graves, aisha contradicted them! why did aisha contradict them when she knew they were speaking the truth?
## let us now suppose that #1214 occured before #1212:
Book 004, Number 1214:
'A'isha reported: There came to me two old women from the old Jewesses of Medina and said: The people of the grave are tormented in their graves. I contradicted them and I did not deem it proper to testify them. They went away and the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) came to me and I said to him: Messenger of Allah I there came to me two old women from the old Jewesses of Medina and asserted that the people of the graves would be tormented therein. He (the Prophet) said: They told the truth; they would be tormented (so much) that the animals would listen to it. She ('A'isha) said: Never did I see him (the Holy Prophet) afterwards but seeking refuge from the torment of the grave in prayer.
# at this point of time muhammad knew about the trial of the grave, but later lied to the jewess (in #1212) about it!
...in anycase, these ahadith seem to make for total nonsense cuz v have either muhammad or aisha lying to the jewess/es about adhaab alqabr!
# i can see a possible way out but that would really be playing with words, and would not help much - in connection with two different incidents does aisha say that she saw the prophet seek refuge after it, and i think v will agree that there can be only one first!
# besides, there are other problems with these traditions! (-:
Quote:
Well, this topic now makes me a little better. As i feel i should get involved more, as i said earlier things are getting tough and I am being more dunyafied.
# ))-:
Quote:
Keep it coming bro.
# i have found a couple at shiite sites/blogs, and am looking for references! i ll post them later...hopefully! (-:
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