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Hadith & Sunnah - Was Mary a part of the Trinity according to the Quran
- Tue 24 Apr, 2007 7:11 am
Post subject: Was Mary a part of the Trinity according to the Quran
Another dumb bum from FFI web site:

osmanthus wrote:
Hey I just found this sura where JC is asked if he ever said he and Mary were gods. Everyone who knows the slightest thing about Christianity knows that Mary has never been part of the Trinity.


osmanthus wrote:
Now I know that Islam must have come up with some excuse for this obvious error. What is it?



Hello Muslim brothers and sisters, boys and girls of FFI and all

An aussie dumb bum claims the following:

The Quran told us that Mary is part of the trinity

The dumb aussie bum never supported his allegation though, he came up with a silly excuse that he can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t find the verses, hahahah, that should say it all, another manipulated FFI boy

Let me prove to all of yous that the Quran never said that Mary is part of the trinity, I will start by 5:73 where the trinity is mentioned, please remember that the bible itself never mentioned the trinity which make laugh at all the confused Christians who believe in the man made trinity:

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
[The Quran ; 5-73]

لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلاَثَةٍ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَهٍ إِلاَّ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ وَإِن لَّمْ يَنتَهُواْ عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ (73)

-> See what the verse above is telling us: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلاَثَةٍ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity:????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. they consider Allah as a member of the trinity, this is clear from the words: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? اللّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلاَثَةٍ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Allah is one of three in a trinity????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, the verse however never told us who are the other two gods who constitute the flawed Trinity concept along with Allah, again it clearly told that those confused humans claimed that Allah is a member of that alleged trinity

Now let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s look at the other verse that the aussie dumb bum thinks it is talking about the Trinity:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

[The Quran ; 5-116]

وَإِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلاَ أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلاَّمُ الْغُيُوبِ (116)

-> The translation above is by Yusuf Ali, in the verse we read that Allah is asking Jesus the following :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? أَأَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, see how the Arabic words ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????مِن دُونِ اللّهِ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Min Doon Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? was translated by Yusuf Ali, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? in derogation of Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, the web definition for the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????derogation????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? is as follow:

Temporary or permanent exemption from part of the Regulations.

See, 5:116 never talked about trinity to begin with, it was only talking about another alleged two gods, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Jesus and his mother????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, on the other hand Allah was expemted from that, i.e. they took Jesus and Mary as god in derogation of the one god, this is very important because in the other trinity verse we read clearly that Allah was part of the trinity as the kafir Christians believe



Let me recap before issuing my slam dunk

1) 5:73 was clearly talking about the trinity
2) 5:73 clearly told us that those who believe in the trinity think that Allah is a member of that trinity, i.e. Allah was not left out
3) 5:116 however, never talked about any trinity, it was only talking about if Jesus told his people to worship him and his mother as gods, INSTEAD OF ALLAH, i.e. Allah is not a part of any trinity, he was left out in 5:116, this is clear from the Arabic words ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Min Doon Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, he is not part if any trinity in 5:116 nor 5:116 told us that Jesus and his mother are part of any trinity


see how the confused boys and girls on FFI are addicted to the Tutty Fruity fallacy, they love comparing apples and mangos then make both the same bloody thing

such an ignorant boys and girls

well here my slam dunk dumb bums



PS boys and girls: if you can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t comprehend the above and will keep ranting then I have no further time to waste with your stupid bums, on the other hand I will give you one more chance to bring your mentor Dr Ali Sina to try his best and refute the above
- Tue 24 Apr, 2007 7:30 am
Post subject:
It's as clear as day that the vast majority of Christianity i.e. Catholicism takes Mary for worship, the Qur'an is correct again:



And ready for the precession:

Thumbnail, click to enlarge.


Astaghfirullah
- Tue 24 Apr, 2007 7:32 am
Post subject:
Thank you bro

I will copy your comment to FFI right now

cheers
- Tue 24 Apr, 2007 8:11 am
Post subject:
No probs bro.

Notice the inflammatory cartoon at their homepage, the one-sided bigotry and hatred is obvious.
- Tue 24 Apr, 2007 3:00 pm
Post subject:
Zayd wrote:
No probs bro.

Notice the inflammatory cartoon at their homepage, the one-sided bigotry and hatred is obvious.


yeh man

if you read what all of them say there you will know well they hate us

Salam
- Wed 25 Apr, 2007 1:55 am
Post subject:
Salam,

I read some of their weak refutations to the fact that Christians worship Mary, since I am unable to sign up due to a rediculous flaw in their system could you please post these verses from the Bible on my behalf.

These verses show what the Qur'an tells us about Christians and their hypocritical ways, so if any of those ignorants dare say that creating statues isn't Idol worship then here's another Slam Dunk for ya'

Deuteronomy 4: 15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.

It's not any more important whether its a man or a woman but just thought I'd underline that to bring the ignorance right home to those transgressors.
Oh, and here's another one:

Habakkuk 2: 18 "Of what value is an idol, since a man has carved it? Or an image that teaches lies? For he who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak. 19 Woe to him who says to wood, 'Come to life!' Or to lifeless stone, 'Wake up!' Can it give guidance? It is covered with gold and silver; there is no breath in it.

Salam akhi, those who believe in God support those who guard against the unbelievers. Insha Allah I will get round their moronic system and sign up soon, we will flood their forum with refutations to their pathetic lies and choke them on their own bigotry.
- Wed 25 Apr, 2007 7:16 am
Post subject:
Al-Quraishi wrote:
Salam,

I read some of their weak refutations to the fact that Christians worship Mary, since I am unable to sign up due to a rediculous flaw in their system could you please post these verses from the Bible on my behalf.

These verses show what the Qur'an tells us about Christians and their hypocritical ways, so if any of those ignorants dare say that creating statues isn't Idol worship then here's another Slam Dunk for ya'

Deuteronomy 4: 15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.

It's not any more important whether its a man or a woman but just thought I'd underline that to bring the ignorance right home to those transgressors.
Oh, and here's another one:

Habakkuk 2: 18 "Of what value is an idol, since a man has carved it? Or an image that teaches lies? For he who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak. 19 Woe to him who says to wood, 'Come to life!' Or to lifeless stone, 'Wake up!' Can it give guidance? It is covered with gold and silver; there is no breath in it.

Salam akhi, those who believe in God support those who guard against the unbelievers. Insha Allah I will get round their moronic system and sign up soon, we will flood their forum with refutations to their pathetic lies and choke them on their own bigotry.


Thanks a lot bro, I will copy it now

Cheers
- Thu 26 Apr, 2007 10:14 am
Post subject:
Always_Faithful wrote:
Ahmed


Hello

Always_Faithful wrote:
I do speak arabic (as a second language).


Great this will make my job easier if we discuss the Quran together

Always_Faithful wrote:
To clarify, I've been working on your translation,


Actually it was not my translation, I looked at all and selected the best according to the Arabic words, I found Yusuf Ali one is the most accurate, on the other hand I disagree with Yusuf Ali regarding his translation to many other verses

Always_Faithful wrote:
because the verse confused me if I'm being honest,


sure, the verses may confuse the Muslims themselves, the Quran is a hard book and is not for the faint hearted

Always_Faithful wrote:
and I'd rather take your word for it.


While this is fine with me and thanks for your trust, I still urge you to qualify with whoever anything I say regarding the Arabic Quran words meamings within the verses context

Always_Faithful wrote:
It being your first language, your arabic is likely better than mine.


The reaosn of being my first language is not valid really, I know many arabic natives speakers and Muslims and the lack the knowlede of the Arabic Language, in my case however I was a top student in the Arabic language for the first 12 years in my school, this is not a lie

in general the Arabic language subject is a tough one for the majority of arabs, for me it was likie a piece of cake, I justy loved it and did very well in it.

Always_Faithful wrote:
My translation would differ from yours, that's why I initially said that the verse refered to the Trinity.


Ok

Always_Faithful wrote:
Although "min doon" does usually (when isolated) mean "without" or "in exception to", when reading through, it seems to imply the meaning "in addition to"


Well, I will take your point as valid because many arabs and translators committed this fatal error, but I can show you many other examples from the Qurtan where the words "Min Doon" were used and it has to only mean exclusion.


Always_Faithful wrote:
(the arabic of the Qur'an can be very difficult to interpret i'm sure you'll agree)


Of course, however I see the Min Doon as exclusion as I see the clear light, in fact all those who tranlsated it ot understood as inclusion must lack common sense, Min Doon must mean exclusion

Always_Faithful wrote:
in this scenario. "Min doon" can be a contranym (just like the english "beside(s)").


Not really because the Arabic word beside is ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? مَعَ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, "Maa", I can show you at least 20 examples from the Quran for this word along with the word Allah, and you will see how stupid all those who understood that ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Min Doon????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? means "beside"

Always_Faithful wrote:
In my opinion, this verse translates as "Gods in addition to Allah", which would mean it is refering to the Trinity.


I'm sorry it can't be, here is it how it should look in Arabic if it really means "Beside":

????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? الهين مع الله????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Ilahain Maa Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Two gods BESIDE Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e INCLUSION, i.e. Trinity, BUT IT NEVER APPEARED AS SUCH

Here is an example from the Quran for the words ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Maa Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Beside Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. inclusion:

Who set some other god along with Allah. But they will come to know.
[The Quran ; 15:96]

الَّذِينَ يَجْعَلُونَ مَعَ اللّهِ إِلهًا آخَرَ فَسَوْفَ يَعْلَمُونَ (96)

-> See: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? مَعَ اللّهِ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Maa Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Along with Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. inclusion

Here is another example:

And set not any other god along with Allah; lo! I am a plain warner unto you from Him.
[The Quran ; 51:51]

وَلَا تَجْعَلُوا مَعَ اللَّهِ إِلَهًا آخَرَ إِنِّي لَكُم مِّنْهُ نَذِيرٌ مُّبِينٌ (51)

-> See again: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? مَعَ اللّهِ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Maa Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Along with Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. inclusion

I can show you at least 20 examples from the Quran. So it is stupid to make ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Min Doon Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? = ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Maa Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, only ignorant will do so.

Always_Faithful wrote:
If we do accept your translation as "min doon" meaning "in derogation of",


I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t think you or others have any other option but to accept it, it is the truth as far as I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m concerned, I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t have to deceive you to defend my religion, in fact I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t have to defend my religion if I choose to.

Always_Faithful wrote:
then it would imply that Jesus and/or Mary are taken as being individual Gods without there being an Allah. Would you agree that this would be the correct interpretation regarding your translation?


I totally agree, on the other hand you have to consider an important point which I have not discussed yet, the verse about taking Mary and Jesus as gods Min Doon Allah, was a question to Jesus i.e. it was not a fact, the verse never said back but many Christians do that, right?, again it was mere question,

Now the intention of that question by Allah was never mentioned, it is the humans who can invent whatever regarding that question then make them bloody facts

For me the verse is left wide open INTENTIONLAY by Allah to comply with 3:7 that some verses will deliberately made hard to understand as test to the Kafirs and the believers

The Kafirs with malice in their hearts, will try to speculate the meaning of these verses to cause discord between the believers and possibly some believers will follow that discord

At least we have see the kafirs like usmanThug doing just that in this thread

Allah knows best

Salam
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