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I believe the righteous humans in general ( not explicitly Mohammed or Adam ) are put in a higher ;evel than the angels, this is because two logical reasons:
1) The angels has not given a limited freewill as the human are given
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2) the angels are made to serve the humans in a way to fullfil Allah laws, for example Jebril was a servant to all prophets, not in a worshipping manner, rather to fulfil their needs
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3) another example of the angels is Malik who is the guardain of Hell, again he was created for such reason only
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4) and the two angels who write our deeds, again they can only do that
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5) the angels also have no reward
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therefore I believe the humans are held in higher level than the angels in the eyes of Allah, of course the ones who are righteous not the others
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For the Jinns though, I will have no idea so please don't ask me 
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Ok mate, it seems I expressed their role using the word servent wrong, I agree that they are Awliaa, i.e. guardians
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now to know which is higher the angels or the humans, is going to be really hard, I also believe it should make no difference to the belief as long as we believe in them, all my life I, i understood that the humans are higher in the eyes of Allah. however I'm happy to change that if compelling Quran evidence is provided, the whole issue won't affect my belief even after I'm convinced that they are higher than humans
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# what annoys me is that they come up with wierd traditions too show that muhammad is greater than gabriel; it is a bit amazing why they would choose to belittle the mighty gabriel to magnify muhammad's stature! (-:
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...i will come to the real thing now: are gabriel and michael "malaika"? what are the relevant verses?
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I think they based their thinking on that hadith about Israa and Miraaj when Jebril could not go beyond a specific point while Mohammed was allowed to go further
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Who is an enemy to Allah, and His angels and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael! Then, lo! Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers.
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what do you think Jebril is ?
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what do you think the message of 2:98 is?
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what do you think Jebril is ?
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# i really don't know...but i do feel that gabriel is a creation other than the angels!
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...however, i do feel that gabriel is the "rul alqudusi" mentioned in the quran; and perhaps also "ruh alameen"
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...and yes, does appear to me to be the holy spirit mentioned in the bible; ofcourse, according to the bible gabriel and the holy spirit are different!
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what do you think the message of 2:98 is?
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# ...that whoever bears animosity towards god and its angels and its messengers and gabriel and michael, then god is in opposition of that person!
...have i missed something here, bud? (-:
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## take care...salam! (-:
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ahmedbahagt wrote:
I say he must be one of the intelligent creatures that Allah mentioned in the Quran, i.e. a human, an angel or a jinn, I really can't think on any other intelligent creature
I say it is more plausible to eliminate him as a jinn or a human, so an angel will be the only intelligent creature left
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possibly the highest ranked angel?
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I guess we need to study the Quran more to find out
of course there is a direct answer in the hearsay hadith, that is if we chose to ignore it assuming it contradict the Quran
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I believe that Ruh Al Qudus is nothing but a title really, and in such case it may be the title of the highest ranked angel, again more Quran study needed
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I say that calling him as such in the bible add to the argument that it maybe his title as the highest ranked angel
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You did not miss as word for word translation, however I meant your understanding, possibly i meant your igtihad to understand the message
I say, not because the angels are mentioned as a separate entity then the two other names Jebril and Michael are mentioned after with a WAW in between that they are not considered from the angels, I agree totally with you that the first mentioned word ANGELS is plural and should cover Jebril and Michael if they are angels, however mentioning them again with a waw is a common style in the Quran to stress their positions in the eyes of Allah in relation to the rest of the angels (assuming we consider them angels for now) I will try to find many examples from the Quran for you later on isnhaallah, this again adds to the argument that Jebril and Michael are two of the highest ranked angels if not the two highest
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Jibreel and Mikael are the cheifs and the most involved among the angels. That's why there is a special speech addressing them.
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Since brother The posted this thread, I could not stop thinking about it, this is because I knew what he is after, he is after a Quran only evidence. Bringing evidences from the Quran alone is always my first priority, this still does not make me a Quran alone Muslim, I accept anything from anyone even Darwin as long as it does not contradict the Quran, however for this argument presented by brother The, we can?????????????????????¢??t use anything as prime evidence but the Quran, now if we find out that other evidences implies the same then the other evidences should be considered along with the Quran, however the purpose of this comment is not to look at other evidences rather to look at a verse that for me should answer brother The question conclusively, it happened an hour ago actually, I was driving my car around and thinking about the argument presented, and the verse just hit me, I could not wait actually to go home and write this comment, let?????????????????????¢??s look at the following verse?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
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Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men; surely Allah is Hearing,Seeing
[The Quran ; 22:75]
اللَّهُ يَصْطَفِي مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ رُسُلًا وَمِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ سَمِيعٌ بَصِيرٌ (75)
-> From the above, it is clear that Allah chooses messengers from only two types of creatures:
1) The Angels: Allah chooses messengers from among the angels
2) The Humans: and from among the men
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Now if you agree that Jebreel is a messenger of Allah, then he has to be one of the above, now it will impossible to believe that he was a human messenger sent to another human messenger, it makes no sense, therefore, 22:75 must affirm that Jebreel is an angel. Now considering the other verses where Jebreel and Michael were mentioned explicitly with the angels, then Allah indeed put them in a higher rank positions. Add on top of that what we learnt from the hearsay hadith, then 100% Jebreel must be an angel
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A messneger is anyone whom Allah appointed to send a specific message through him to a person or to a group of people
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17:95
Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger.
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6:130
O ye assembly of the jinn and humankind! Came there not unto you messengers of your own who recounted unto you My tokens and warned you of the meeting of this your Day? They will say: We testify against ourselves. And the life of the world beguiled them. And they testify against themselves that they were disbelievers.
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A messneger is anyone whom Allah appointed to send a specific message through him to a person or to a group of people
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# ...then, can an angel be a messenger unto humans?
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17:95
Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger.
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# further...
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6:130
O ye assembly of the jinn and humankind! Came there not unto you messengers of your own who recounted unto you My tokens and warned you of the meeting of this your Day? They will say: We testify against ourselves. And the life of the world beguiled them. And they testify against themselves that they were disbelievers.
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## from this verse it appears that there are messengers from amongst djinns; for this reason i am of the opinion that v cannot conclude, from 22:75, that messengers can only be from angels or humans! (-:
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Of course, like the angels of death who deliver death from Allah to everyone of us
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Of course the humans had not,
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but the messnegrs must have a rasool from Allah to deliver to them their tasks that they have to do, and the most valid argument here that this Rasool must be an angel whom Allah praised high in His Quran
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No it is not, because the human messnegers can be considered sent to the jinn as well
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because Allah made them to hear and see us while we can not do that to them, The Quran even gave us an example of some Jinn hearing the Quran and believeing in it
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Of course, like the angels of death who deliver death from Allah to everyone of us
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# so the "specific message" that is being sent to an individual or a group is "death"?
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...by the same token, angels delivering "help" from god are also messengers unto humans; and so are angels delivering "sustenance"...right?
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Of course the humans had not,
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# so are the angels (delivering death and help and sustenance) "messengers" unto humans? or are they not?
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but the messnegrs must have a rasool from Allah to deliver to them their tasks that they have to do, and the most valid argument here that this Rasool must be an angel whom Allah praised high in His Quran
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# do the angels act as rasool only unto the (human) messengers?
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...also, it still begs the question: cannot a creation higher than the angels deliver a message from god to the messengers?
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No it is not, because the human messnegers can be considered sent to the jinn as well
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# so are human messengers unto the djinns like "messengers of their own"? god says that humans are sent unto humans, and angels would have been sent unto angels, so it is only fair that djinns would be sent unto djinns!
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...still, ignoring the assumption, where is it that humans have been sent as messengers unto djinns?
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and that these human messengers recounted god's tokens to the djinns and warned them? (-:
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because Allah made them to hear and see us while we can not do that to them, The Quran even gave us an example of some Jinn hearing the Quran and believeing in it
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# the djinns heard the quran -- i don't think their happenning to the hear the quran is the same thing same as the coming of "messengers of their own (who recount god's token and warn them)," which is what god says! (-:
## take care...salam! (-:
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With the angel(s) of death, YES, this is because amessneger can also do a task that been assigned to, like the two angels who write our deeds and like the angels who were sent to destroy the people of Lut
100% regarding help however not sure about delivering "sustenance"
100% regarding help and other tasks, like causing someone to die
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well, the Quran told us that the angels will come down to the righteous, how, I have no idea, however for the human messnegrs, yes the Quran stated that Allah sends messengers to them, and that can not another human messneger, it's just plain stupidity to send a human messneger to another human messneger to be honest
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That is if Allah told us about it, however He only told us that He appoint messengers from the angels or the humans
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however what you are doing is assuming the unknown, you can't even say what Jebril is, you are only assuming that he is unknown creature
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Again that is if angels live on earth, an angel messenger will be sent to them, however what was sent as a messneger is not for the humans rather for the human prophets to know their tasks that been assigned to them
In sura Al Jinns we read that some of them heard the Quran and believed in it, now I have to say they heard it from humans because the Quran was sent to a human and propagated from there
Well, Allah didn't tell us that, but He told us that they heard the Quran and believed in it and again they must have heard it from humans
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again, you are talking unknown, I only talk according to the Quran evidences, and I can't believe that Allah mention Jebril and you suggest that it is a totally different creature that Allah never told us about
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Now if you think considering Jebril as an angel is a big mistake, I say considering him an unknown creature has to be a similar mistake in magnitude if not more
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we should agree to disagree, I do believe logically that Jegril is 100% an angel
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Hi,
This is not fair 'agree to disagree'. One of you has to be wrong. Please restart, with 10 sentences no longer than 255 chracters each. Can quote verses from quran. If you don't want to do it for yourself, do it for us, the readers!
Thankyou!
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This is not fair 'agree to disagree'. One of you has to be wrong. Please restart, with 10 sentences no longer than 255 chracters each. Can quote verses from quran. If you don't want to do it for yourself, do it for us, the readers!
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
however I could not agree iwth him for the following reasons:
1) Allah is not going to mention Jebril while he is an unknown creature to us
2) Allah said that He appoints messengers from the Ins and Angels,
3) if we assume that He may be appointing from the Jinn as well because He did not deny it, then we put ourselves in the position of saying things against Allah that we don't know
4) Gebril can not be a human messenger for many logical reaqsons
5) In all the hearsay hadith, Jebril was always an angel and nothing but an angel.
Therefore, it is safer to assume that he is an angel than assuming he is an unknown creature
I can't put myself in a position of rejecting all the fact of hadith because I reject most of it, as I always say, I will acceot anything from anyone as long as it does not contradict the Quran, now for me considering him any other creature must contradict the Quran because Allah told us that He appoints messnegers from the Ins and Angels, while he never said ONLY from them, under Arabic "ONLY" is not required, in fact He never used such word to tell us to do a specific action ONLY in a specific manner, He just tells us the fact without using the word "ONLY", it's logical
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This is not fair 'agree to disagree'. One of you has to be wrong. Please restart, with 10 sentences no longer than 255 chracters each. Can quote verses from quran. If you don't want to do it for yourself, do it for us, the readers!
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
however I could not agree iwth him for the following reasons:
1) Allah is not going to mention Jebril while he is an unknown creature to us
2) Allah said that He appoints messengers from the Ins and Angels,
3) if we assume that He may be appointing from the Jinn as well because He did not deny it, then we put ourselves in the position of saying things against Allah that we don't know
4) Gebril can not be a human messenger for many logical reaqsons
5) In all the hearsay hadith, Jebril was always an angel and nothing but an angel.
Therefore, it is safer to assume that he is an angel than assuming he is an unknown creature
I can't put myself in a position of rejecting all the fact of hadith because I reject most of it, as I always say, I will acceot anything from anyone as long as it does not contradict the Quran, now for me considering him any other creature must contradict the Quran because Allah told us that He appoints messnegers from the Ins and Angels, while he never said ONLY from them, under Arabic "ONLY" is not required, in fact He never used such word to tell us to do a specific action ONLY in a specific manner, He just tells us the fact without using the word "ONLY", it's logical
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# 1 of the contentions here is over the hidden "only" in the verse 22:75; v do have, according to me, some very relevant verses in 6:130 (messengers sent to djinns and humans from amongst themselves) and 17:95 (human messenger for humans; angel messenger for angels), but the assumed "only" is the obstruction v need to get over! further, in verse 5:31, v have a crow acting as a "messenger"!
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...in 2:130, god says that it has "chosen abraham in the world"...should v understand that *only* abraham has been chosen in the world?
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# as far as i know, there have been no instances of gabriel being called an "angel (or archangel)" even in the old testament; it is in the new testament wherein a distinction has been made between the "holy spirit" and gabriel,
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and gabriel has been introduced (or re-introduced) as an "angel (or archangel)"! but from a quranic point of view it does apear that the holy spirit and gabriel are the same entity! however, the faithful ahadith writers seem to have blissfully incorporated the christian distinction regarding gabriel into their own books!
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...if v let alone all extra-quranic sources, and concentrate on the quran, v do not find gabriel being addressed as, or counted among, malaika! in the quran,
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gabriel seems to have been called ruh alameen and ruh alqudoosi; it probably is gabriel who has been called "our spirit" in 19:17; and gabriel is probably the ruh that descends along with the angels on the night of qadr!
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# i am still open to gabriel being an angel...if i come across something compelling; but just because it is found in ahadith (especially comical ones) i won't be buying it! who or what gabriel is, i still admit to not having much, if at all any, clue!
## take care, bros...salam! (-:
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your rejection to his angelic status is a bit dangerous BTW, this is because one of things that we are ORDERED to believe in are the ANGELS
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we were never asked to believe in something that we have absolutely no idea about, it makes no sense as well makes our god look silly, astaghafar Allah
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But Allah said in many other verses that He has chosen others, therefore your argument above is not explicit to support your refute
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# i am satisfied with the way this discussion has gone and am pretty sure that there is nothing other than ahadith to endorse gabriel as an angel or inferior to muhammad; however, i will comment on some of ur remarks which i find surprising! (-:
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your rejection to his angelic status is a bit dangerous BTW, this is because one of things that we are ORDERED to believe in are the ANGELS
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# i have never rejected angels;so it is dangerous if u are trying to make it appear so!
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## even more dangerous if u r saying that god has ordered to believe that gabriel is an angel;
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to add r personal wishes to god's list of commands is the last thing v want to do...i am sure! (-
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we were never asked to believe in something that we have absolutely no idea about, it makes no sense as well makes our god look silly, astaghafar Allah
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# why do v want to have an idea about the nature of gabriel?
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is it not enough that god has made it clear that gabriel brings the message to the prophet;
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has honored it as "ruh alameen" and "ruh alqudusi;" and vowed enmity to its enemies?
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why add words to god's words, and claim that without the added words god would look silly? (-:
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But Allah said in many other verses that He has chosen others, therefore your argument above is not explicit to support your refute
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# i haven't yet come across the verses where god has chosen others in the world...please provide us with the verses!
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...till then, according to ur interpretation of 22:75, god has chosen *only* abraham *in the world*; has chosen *only* moses over *men*; has chosen *only* adam, noah, and familes of abraham and imran over *alaalameen*; and chosen *only* mary over the *women of the world*!
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## myself...i am more than satisfied with r discussion;
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and i am as yet not in the mood to accept ahadith and non-muslim texts, nor to add their beliefs to the list of god's commands! (-:
# take care, bro...salam! (-:
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i *think* majority of sunnis and shiites hold muhammad to be the greatest (or atleast co-greatest) of all the created beings!
...so, effectively, muhammad, for them, is "greater" than gabriel and michael; i have read some traditions which, i feel, even belittle these two servants of god!
## i cannot swear to this, but i think i have read a claim that every human is created higher than the angels; and the proof provided was the verse where the angels are said to prostrate unto adam! at the very least, adam is considered superior to gabriel and michael, based on the same verse!
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...my question to the people in here is: do u subscribe to this? that muhammad and adam are "greater" than the angels? and that they are "greater" than gabriel and michael?
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i hope not to create a fitna, but my take is that gabriel and michael are, at least, not "lesser" than any human!
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I found it really silly that both me and you argue such matter, but if we just consider it a friendly discussion, I still find no fruit that will come out of it, this is because you are right, it was never exclusive that Jebril was mentioned as an angel in the Quran, therefore you believe that he was not, ignoring the whole history records that we can analyse, while for me I believe that he is based on my acceptance to the history records (note that I don't call it hadith), now the only thing that forces me to look for any history records regarding the prophet is the Quran, I have already presented 16:64 as a string argument that one of the roles of the prophet was to EXPLAIN to us things that we differ in it, and I'm sure your question was raised to the prophet himself by others during his time, now when I looked at the history records, I found that they make sense and is in full compliance with 16:64 and other verses that I will show later on inshaallah
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I didn't mean that you reject the whole angels, what i meant that you reject that Jebril is an angel based on the history records which will make you questioned under 16:64 ans other verses that I will show later on
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now if Jebril is an angel and you will use the excuse to Allah (if allowed) that you totally ignored the history records and a couple of verses in the Quran that clearly say the followings:
1) the prophet should explain to us things that we differ about
2) the prophet should teach us, Al Kitab and Al Hikmah and THINGS THAT WE DON'T KNOW
I really don't know what reply you may get, I just felt that it may be a dangerous way to go
assume now the same circumstances but for myself, i.e. Jebril was not an angel and I believed that he is and I will be questioned by Allah, if allowed to defend myself, believe me I will have far better defence than yours and yet by using His own words.
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Not at all that I meant that
what I meant IN CASE IT WILL BE SOMETHING THAT WE WILL BE QUESTIONED REGARDING IT
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of course
however, I consider it silly from a god to mention to us a very important creature while not telling or at least not telling his messengers, what sort of creature he is, it makes no sense to me, therefore using Allah own words, I have listened to what we heard about the prophet and qualified iit using the Quran as I presented in all my previous comments
Because that is what makes sense for the type of God in the Quran, for me and this is totally personal opinion, Allah won't mention a creature with such important role without telling us directly through scriptures or through His messengers of his creature status, for me I can't accept it
The vision I have for our God, that He is way too smart to act in such manner regarding Jebril, if he chose not to say directly and just a few hints then allowing His messengers to explain it, then that is very acceptable in my book because the prophets sent are not just couriers to deliver a book, they all delivered a package, that includes, The Book, The Wisdom and THINGS THAT WE DON'T KNOW
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it is actually very degrading to the messengers to think of them as nothing but couriers
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And that must not be an unknown creature, it’s just plain silliness, Jebril was not a courier eaith, Jebril was doing many things and has an important role in the whole universe, and I believe the whole universe is managed by a massive team if ranked angels, everything, even the storms, the clouds, the rain even hell, that is a logical belief that I had on my own, now I was delighted to read in the hadith that my thinking is the same. I agree that does not conclusively mean that I’m right, however this is what I absolutely feel comfortable to believe in. it is just impossible for me to think if Jebril as an unknown creature
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Remember the verse about the wings of the angels, in such verse we read that the angels differ in the number of wings they were given, again the hadith complies perfectly with such verse when the prophet described Jebril to his companions
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35:1
Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, Who appointeth the angels messengers having wings two, three and four. He multiplieth in creation what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
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Exactly, and in such verses Allah warned us to be an enemy for Jebril it is just plain stupidity that Allah will be warning us to be an enemy for an unknown creature. It makes no sense to me nor that I consider it a case of saying things against Allah that are wrong, I look at all evidences then with the Quran on top, I can find answers realy easy instead of submitting to ignorance by saying I will just accept that he is an unknown creature other than angels, humans and jinns, these are the only creatures Allah mentioned the most in the Quran btw, I’d rather believe that he was a human or a jinn rather than believing that he was unknown, however I managed through logic to dismiss the possibility that he may be a human or a jinn, therefore for me he must be an angel
Yes because Jberil has an important role in the universe, as well Allah asked us not to be an enemy of such creature(s), and it is our right to know from Him or from the messengers He sent, what type of creature is that.
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I meant chosen messengers from the angels, i.e. He mentioned other Rusul from among the angels, is that what you understood?
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Actually, my understanding with the word ONLY may fit perfectly, this is because everyone had unique role to the other. Even unique miracles and messages, therefore that is 100% logically right, He ONLY chose Inrahim to do a specific task and ONLY chose Moses to do another specific task. Etc etc
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Indeed it’s great, but I don’t have the time at the moment mate, I love dialoguing with you indeed, however, I reckon it will be more fruitful that I put more effort into the translation of the Quran and you give me a helping hand when you can, there is a lot to do mate
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Look mate, my philosophy regarding Islam is very simple indeed, NO COMLICATION whatsoever, I actually to simplify it as much as I can, however I find myself dragged into things (remember free-minds days) that really consume my energy because it is not simple any more, rather too complicated and I hate that by nature. This actually complies with the Quran 100%, remember the verses that Allah says He wants to make it easy on us, that ease must be covering understanding the religion and when we do so we should understand the burden on us and that is when we should recognise how easy it is or how hard it is
For me mate the belief is the easiest things, it can happen on the fly, like in a second, now to submit this is a life struggle mate and that is what I want to concentrate on knowing that I already passed halfway, in fact I consider myself at 42 that I passed close to 2/3. therefore I will have absolutely no time to review my simple belief because that was done with years and years ago, I’m currently is the submission state and this is very tough mate, that is why I was delighted to be permanently banned from free-minds, as well I will be delighted to be permanently banned from faithfreedom, in fact bro, I mock around way too much and at 42, this is bad
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17:85
They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.
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I was too busy at the Council of Ex-Muslims' site, which I quit this evening and did not write on this. I think Rigel has a good point and we should not agree to disagree. Instead, we should try to address the topic.
I ahve the following comments and points to make:
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I believe this is mostly a Persian and Sub-Continental thingy. The words used by most people is "Ashraful-Makhlooqaat", meaning, "The most exalted of all creatures". We have been commanded in Qur'aan not to grade ranks even for prophets, vide "Laa nufar-riqo baina ahadim-minhum" meaning,"We do not differentiate between any of them".
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Personally, I have never compared Prophet with Jibra'eel. Allah addresses Jibra'eel as Rooh and Ruhul-Ameen. Ruhul-Quds was the noble soul granted to Esa, not to Jibra'eel. Please correct me if I am wrong on this.
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Angels are pure, powerful and they do as they are told. "Yaf'aloona ma yu'maroon" They do not disobey Allah. However, they have no desires or passions like man and never fall. But man has been given the brain and knowledge and using that man can climb very high, reaching God and also can fall below. That is the free will which was given to man, but angels never were granted this free-will.
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When all were asked to bow down to man, it was not an act of worship or surrender to man. It was to acknowledge Allah's new creation that is Adam.
There is nothing much mentioned in Qur'aan about Jibra'eel and Mika'eel. All we have is what came through the early Jewish and Christian converts who embraced Islam and stories about angels came into our collections.
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I do not and we should not. The reason is in verse, "Walaa taqfo ma laisa laka bayhe ilm", meaning "Don't guess about what you have no knowledge." In Urdu or Hindi, the exact meaning is "Tuk-kah mat maaro" and I hope Rigel will understand this.
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No worries. Jibra'eel, Mika'eel and all angels have a fixed job and position. Man can achieve greater heights in terms of getting closer to Allah and man can also fall down into an abyss. That is why in the verse,"Al-lazeena yahmayloonal arshaa wa mun haula", Surah Momin, does not refer to angels by name. It includes all.
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# u r right...sincere apologies if my posts come across as being confrontational...i ll be a lil more cheerful...inshallah! (-:
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Thankyou brothers for brining the argument to an end. And as brother BMZ has translated "Walaa taqfo ma laisa laka bayhe ilm" - 'Tuka mat maroo'. It really fits well brother THE, you brought a discussion which you yourself were not sure about, neither you had any evidence. Sorry brother THE but this time you sounded like firon-minds, who just rejects history and hates suni/shia.
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Letme tell you muslims are more hindu, more chirstian, more jew, than suni/shia thingy you mentioned, we share more culture and false beliefs than you can imagine, so why bash poor common people who are very illitrate and most of whom can hardly feed their families two times a day. One should consider ground realities instead of labeling whitehouse style.
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Brother the line was there where you started this topic
I personally think this Jebril issue was wastage of time, since nothing new or concrete, neither I guess it matters to us today. Thankyou anyway brother because theres always something to learn from these discussions.
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Okeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey guess thats enough, lets goto arcade and shoot some ET, else you will shoot me
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I will just reply to the above as I need to go
firstly no confrontation in here, you stated your opinion and I stated mine then I suggested to agree to disagree
secondly, no cheering either, I could not understand what you meant but it sounded a bit not right to me
thirdly, I will continue discussing this subject and will add one more long comment when I have time, I have already finished the outlne of this comment
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As I stated earlier, I have one comment to make, firstly I agree that Jibreel has the following 3 titles:
...
In addition, Gabriel also appeared before Zacharias to announce that his son will be called John (the Baptist).
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# nice post, bro...even though i disagree with almost all of it! (-:
## i said beforehand that i do not wish to create a fitna with this...my sole purpose was to have a lil discussion over the matter (i tried discussin it wid myself, but better to get others to punch holes into ur arguments)...and i am fairly satisfied with what i have learned along the way...jazakallah to all!!
# i enjoyed this thread...it has thrown up plenty of questions which i am sure can be of useful pursuit to anybody so inclined!
## salam...take care, bros! (-:
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I don't see any fitnah with what you raised, it may sounded as such at the beginning and this is why I tried to agree to disagree quick, however later on I found that I had to do more work, that work was mentioned in my first comment in this thread, that more Quran study is required, and Al Hamdullelah that I managed to do it, this is because what you raised still made me think that my belief about Jibreel may be wrong, but after the small study that I did, now I'm assured more than ever that Jibreel is 100% and angel, what I liked in my comment is my use of the Bible and how the Quran confirmed such stories in it, at least confirmed the possibility of such stories, for me I have far respect to the Bible than the hadith, in fact for me the Bible may prevail over the hadith in many things, I actually feel more comfortable reading the Bible than the hadith and for me most Bible Evidences must be admissible after confirming it with the Quran, EXACTLY AS WHAT THE QURAN SAID.
What I don't like about many Muslim, that they totally dismiss the Bible and the Hadith, regardless if been qualified by the Quran or not, for me I accept any evidences by anyone as long as the Quran qualified it, and in this case both the Bible and the Quran talked about Jibreel, and that is what is admissible in my books, yet all the hadith also confirms the status of Jibreel as a great angel, unfortunately, the hadith evidences can not be admissible in my books, this should tells you how I hold the Bible in far higher regard than the hadith
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(again.. y eliminate gabriel from djinns?...maybe it is an exceptionally pious and exalted djiin? or even humans?)
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fluxion24 wrote:
Why would anyone even think that gabriel was a djinn or human? Don't they die?
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# so has gabriel been afforded immortality?
...an interesting point u have made!
## ...i said to bro bmz that my understanding that gabriel is not an angel (or an archangel) is founded on the *assumption* that it is gabriel who has been referred to as "ruhalameen" and "ruhulquddoos", and it is gabriel who has been called "ruh" in certain other verses! and for me that still is the stumbling block to my conviction -- seems to be pretty well-supported, but one can never be too sure...!
# take care, bud! (-:
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