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Bring it on - Allah/AlIlah: Does 'Allah' have a meaning?
- Fri 19 Feb, 2010 4:36 am
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Salam bro

Do you think that Allah is a combination of Al + Lah ?

Cheers
- Fri 19 Feb, 2010 6:44 pm
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Yes, buddy, at the moment I do think that Allah is 'The God,' provided we can translate 'ilah' the same way.
- Fri 19 Feb, 2010 10:40 pm
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The wrote:
Yes, buddy, at the moment I do think that Allah is 'The God,' provided we can translate 'ilah' the same way.


I dont believe so mate, in all my Arabic learning ilah is always different to Allah

also a proper name of Allah does not have to have Al, for example, Malik Almulk, i.e. the Possessor of the Kingdom

Cheers
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 12:20 am
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To be honest, my understanding comes, to a large degree, from two Quranic verses. But apart from that, what do you propose is the meaning of 'ilah'. And what about 'Allah'? Take care.
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 6:47 am
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The wrote:
To be honest, my understanding comes, to a large degree, from two Quranic verses.


Good morning bro

Please post the verses and let's discuss it

The wrote:
But apart from that, what do you propose is the meaning of 'ilah'. And what about 'Allah'? Take care.


Ilah mean god, any god, Al-Ilah, also means any god, so we can refer to any man made god using Ilah or Al-Ilah, however if we use the word Ilah to refer to Allah then we must add to the sentence something that uniquely identify Him which His unique name Allah, i.e.

La Illah Illa Allah

i.e. there is no god except Allah

or A Ilah Ghair Allah

i.e. is it a god other than Allah?

for the first example it should sound odd if you say it like this: there is no god except the God, it makes absolutely no sense

and for the second example, it should also sound odd if you say it like this: is it a god other than the God?

Also if you add Al to any other name, like Rahman to be Al-Rahman, or Rahim to be Al-Rahim, the letters without the Al stayed the same, i.e. Rahman & Rahim) on the other hand if you add al to ilah, you won't get the same letters, you need to remove the first alif in Ilah, some idiot say it Lah, so I say to them, what is Ilah then?

Cheers
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 2:50 pm
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I will try to break this up into manageable parts so that we can know where to agree or disagree; I hope this is okay with you, buddy.

@ Ilah mean god, any god, Al-Ilah, also means any god, so we can refer to any man made god using Ilah or Al-Ilah


I agree that the disbelievers misappropriate the term 'ilah' and take others than Allah as 'ilah,' but this does not mean that there really are multiple 'ilahs'.

Here the Quran condemns those who take two 'gods,' and tells that indeed He is the only Ilah:

16:51 God says: 'Take not to you two gods (ilahayni). He is Ilahun Wahidun; so have awe of Me.'

There are many other verses that tell us that there is only One Ilah. So, the correct understanding would be that we have only one Ilah. If you agree with this, then we will move on to the next part. Take care.
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 3:10 pm
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The wrote:
I will try to break this up into manageable parts so that we can know where to agree or disagree; I hope this is okay with you, buddy.


Salam bro

Sure, however I insist that I totally disagree that the name Allah is a compsition of Al + Ilah

The wrote:
@ Ilah mean god, any god,


Indeed

The wrote:
Al-Ilah, also means any god,


Exactly

The wrote:
so we can refer to any man made god using Ilah or Al-Ilah


Of course

The wrote:
I agree that the disbelievers misappropriate the term 'ilah' and take others than Allah as 'ilah,' but this does not mean that there really are multiple 'ilahs'.


I am not sure what you mean? Forget what the disbelievers say, the question is this:

is the name Allah a composition of Al + Ilah ?

The answer for me is absolutely not

The wrote:
Here the Quran condemns those who take two 'gods,' and tells that indeed He is the only Ilah:

16:51 God says: 'Take not to you two gods (ilahayni). He is Ilahun Wahidun; so have awe of Me.'

There are many other verses that tell us that there is only One Ilah.


Thanks for bringing this verse on the table, this verse confirmed for me that Allah cannot be the composition of Al + Ilah

This is because Al-Ilah is a proper Arabic word which looks like this: الاله, therefore the name Allah cannot be the composition of Al +Ilah

In the verse you posted if Allah = Al + Ilah, then instead of saying the verse as follow:

إِنَّمَا هُوَ إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ Innama Hua Ilah Wahid

It should be as follow:

إِنَّمَا هُوَ اللهٰ وَاحِدٌ Inammah Hua Allah Wahid

This is because Allah is still using the word Ilah to refer to Himself, i.e. Ilah can be used to refer to Allah and any man made god, while the name Allah is a unique name that is explicit to Allah

The wrote:
So, the correct understanding would be that we have only one Ilah. If you agree with this, then we will move on to the next part. Take care.


Certianly I agree with that, i.e. we can refer to Allah using the word Ilah, as for the believers there is only one Ilah who is Allah

What ai totally disagree on and reject that the unique name Allah is a composition of Al+Ilah

My strongest argument is simply Al-Ilah is a proper word that can be used to refer to any real or man made god

Cheers
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 4:20 pm
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@ This is because Allah is still using the word Ilah to refer to Himself, i.e. Ilah can be used to refer to Allah and any man made god, while the name Allah is a unique name that is explicit to Allah
Certianly I agree with that, i.e. we can refer to Allah using the word Ilah, as for the believers there is only one Ilah who is Allah


It is not only the believers who have one Ilah, buddy, everybody has only one 'ilah'.


16:51 God says: 'Take not to you two gods (ilahayni). He is Ilahun Wahidun; so have awe of Me.'


It doesn't say that he is One Ilah only for the believers, merely that there is only One Ilah. If you can bring a verse where Allah or a Prophet tells the believers to take one 'ilah' and the disbelievers to take another 'ilah,' then I would be interested in seeing it.

Note this verse, where He again says there is only One Ilah:

16:22 Your Ilah is One Ilah. And they who believe not in the world to come, their hearts deny, and they have waxed proud.


The disbelievers wrongly take others as 'ilah' but the Quran does not endores their practice (16:22, 16:51). Whether Muslims or non-Muslims (Pagans/jews/Christians/others), there is only One Ilah for all.
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 4:50 pm
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The wrote:
@ This is because Allah is still using the word Ilah to refer to Himself, i.e. Ilah can be used to refer to Allah and any man made god, while the name Allah is a unique name that is explicit to Allah
Certianly I agree with that, i.e. we can refer to Allah using the word Ilah, as for the believers there is only one Ilah who is Allah


The wrote:

It is not only the believers who have one Ilah, buddy, everybody has only one 'ilah'.


In reality yes, everybody has one Ilah Who is Allah, but in the deluded world of many humans, they believe to have more than one Ilah, like the Hindus and Christians

The wrote:

16:51 God says: 'Take not to you two gods (ilahayni). He is Ilahun Wahidun; so have awe of Me.'


That is right, Allah in this verse is referring to the real and one God of all creatures, using the words He is Ilah Wahid. He is not referring Himself using His unique name Allah.

The wrote:
It doesn't say that he is One Ilah only for the believers,


That is right, however I meant something else, that from Allah's perspective, There is only One Ilah for all, but from the human perspective, they might be more than one Ilah. The verse however is talking from Allah's perspective


The wrote:
merely that there is only One Ilah.


That is right

The wrote:
If you can bring a verse where Allah or a Prophet tells the believers to take one 'ilah' and the disbelievers to take another 'ilah,' then I would be interested in seeing it.


But this is not related to my point at all, I think we have a communication issue

The wrote:
Note this verse, where He again says there is only One Ilah:

16:22 Your Ilah is One Ilah. And they who believe not in the world to come, their hearts deny, and they have waxed proud.


The disbelievers wrongly take others as 'ilah' but the Quran does not endores their practice (16:22, 16:51). Whether Muslims or non-Muslims (Pagans/jews/Christians/others), there is only One Ilah for all.


That is right, and I know that the Quran is talking from the perpestive of Allah that there is only One Ilah, i.e. we can refer to Allah as, Ilah or Al-Ilah, however Al-Illah cannot be combined to be Allah, i.e. Allah is not the composition of Al + Ilah

Salam
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 5:20 pm
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Yes, buddy. And what we are interested in is the right perspective and not the disbelievers' perspective. So now we agree that there is in fact only one Ilah (for believers and disbelievers alike) and that is Allah. I will now move to the next part of your earlier post.


@however if we use the word Ilah to refer to Allah then we must add to the sentence something that uniquely identify Him which His unique name Allah, i.e.

La Illah Illa Allah
i.e. there is no god except Allah
or A Ilah Ghair Allah
i.e. is it a god other than Allah?
for the first example it should sound odd if you say it like this: there is no god except the God, it makes absolutely no sense
and for the second example, it should also sound odd if you say it like this: is it a god other than the God?


I don't see why it makes no sense or that it sounds odd; it is probably because you are looking at it critically.
Let's read it again, this time with 'Allah' as 'The ilah': There is no ilah except The ilah.

Let us now compare it with another verse (16:22): Your ilah is One ilah

Here's another verse (4:171): The ilah is One ilah.

Now compare 4:171 and 16:22 -- what do we get?
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 5:41 pm
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I did feel that 'ilah' was a misunderstood term, but it is only now that I tried a methodical approach to the subject. And Allah does indeed forcefully convey that He Alone is Ilah.


21:25 And We sent never a Messenger before thee except that We revealed to him, saying, 'There is no ilah but I; so serve Me.'


And Pharaoh's (one of the most arrogant and obstinate disbelievers depicted in the Quran) late realization in 10:90 is also profound.

I am glad we had this conversation, buddy.
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 7:03 pm
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The wrote:
Yes, buddy. And what we are interested in is the right perspective and not the disbelievers' perspective. So now we agree that there is in fact only one Ilah (for believers and disbelievers alike) and that is Allah. I will now move to the next part of your earlier post.


Sure, mate.

The wrote:
@however if we use the word Ilah to refer to Allah then we must add to the sentence something that uniquely identify Him which His unique name Allah, i.e.


That is what I thought, however the verse you brought in dies not use Allah in the sentence, Innama Hua Ilah Wahid, therefore the context should be considered for us to know what Ilah we are talking about, in this verse it is the only Ilah, i.e. Allah is the only God

I think to say, the God is the only God, sounds a bit poor and odd, but Allah is the only God, then it makes great sense of using His unique name "Allah" to refer to Him

The wrote:

La Illah Illa Allah
i.e. there is no god except Allah
or A Ilah Ghair Allah
i.e. is it a god other than Allah?
for the first example it should sound odd if you say it like this: there is no god except the God, it makes absolutely no sense
and for the second example, it should also sound odd if you say it like this: is it a god other than the God?


I totally agree, however we learnt now from the verse you brought in that we have to use the context if Allah is not mentioned when Ilah word is used

The wrote:

I don't see why it makes no sense or that it sounds odd; it is probably because you are looking at it critically.
Let's read it again, this time with 'Allah' as 'The ilah': There is no ilah except The ilah.


There is no Ilah except the Ilah, sounds vague to me but at the same time and under the proper context that the Ilah is Allah, then I may accept it

However La Ilah Illah Allah must be translated as There is no god except Allah

if we translate it as, there is no god except the God, then this is totally wrong

But as for your sentence, La Ilah Illah Al-Ilah, then it must be translated as, there is no god eccept the God, and this is very fine with me

The wrote:
Let us now compare it with another verse (16:22): Your ilah is One ilah

Here's another verse (4:171): The ilah is One ilah.

Now compare 4:171 and 16:22 -- what do we get?


Sure, and it should be translated as, your god is One God, and under the context it should mean that Your god is Allah, but that does not in any way imply that Allah = Al + Ilah

I hope you got what I mean as I fee that we still have a communication issue

Cheers
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 7:05 pm
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The wrote:
I did feel that 'ilah' was a misunderstood term, but it is only now that I tried a methodical approach to the subject. And Allah does indeed forcefully convey that He Alone is Ilah.


21:25 And We sent never a Messenger before thee except that We revealed to him, saying, 'There is no ilah but I; so serve Me.'


And Pharaoh's (one of the most arrogant and obstinate disbelievers depicted in the Quran) late realization in 10:90 is also profound.


all the above is very fine with me and I agree totally with you, my point is simply and linguistically: Allah is not the composition of Al and Ilah

The wrote:

I am glad we had this conversation, buddy.


Likewise bro

Cheers
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 7:55 pm
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@I think to say, the God is the only God, sounds a bit poor and odd

Which verse are you referring to when you give that example of 'the God is the only God'?

Jeez, buddy, I agree we are not on the same page. What I am trying to say is that there is no structural difference between 'The ilah is One ilah' and 'Your ilah is One ilah'.

If you say 'The ilah is One ilah' has a wrong construct, then you have to say the same for 'Your ilah is One ilah' (16:22) as well.


Again, the context for 'ilah' is given in the Quran itself. 21:25 ('There is no ilah but I) makes it clear that there is One Ilah, no matter what the disbelievers say, and that should be enough for us. But fortunately we have an example: In 5:73, the disbelievers are saying "Allah is third of three". Does that mean there exist more than one Allah?
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 8:03 pm
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Indeed bro we are talking about totally different things

Let me simplify it

do you consider the name Allah to be driven from the Arabic word Al-Ilah?

and

How do you translate the following 3 Arabic words into English:

Ilah

Al-Ilah

Allah

?

Cheers
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 8:06 pm
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A modification to the final paragraph above:

Again, the context for 'ilah' is given in the Quran itself. 21:25 ('There is no ilah but I) makes it clear that there is One Ilah, no matter what the disbelievers say, and that should be enough for us. But fortunately we have an example:

In 5:73, the disbelievers are saying "Allah is third of three". Does that mean there exist more than one Allah? Or that there can be two references to Allah -- 'Allah who is One Ilah' and 'Allah who is third of three'?
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 8:12 pm
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At the moment I do believe Allah to be 'AlIlah/The Ilah'.

So Ilah, 'One Ilah' and 'The Ilah' have the same connotation -- God, One God, The God.


Now you don't think Allah is 'The Ilah,' what then do you propose Allah means? Does it mean anything?
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 9:01 pm
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The wrote:
At the moment I do believe Allah to be 'AlIlah/The Ilah'.

So Ilah, 'One Ilah' and 'The Ilah' have the same connotation -- God, One God, The God.


Now you don't think Allah is 'The Ilah,' what then do you propose Allah means? Does it mean anything?


Yes Allah is not the composition of Al and Ilah

Allah means Allah

The arabic name Allah should be translated to Allah

i.e. you cannot translate a name

Now if you think that Allah is the composition of Al + Ilah, then tell me what happened to to the first letter Alif in the word Ilah, why it was omitted after adding the Al to it?
- Sat 20 Feb, 2010 9:29 pm
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Forget translating a name, names can mean something. We don't translated Muhammad into English, but Muhammad means 'one who is praised' or 'praiseworthy'. Likewise, does Allah have any meaning?
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 4:17 am
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The wrote:
Forget translating a name, names can mean something. We don't translated Muhammad into English, but Muhammad means 'one who is praised' or 'praiseworthy'. Likewise, does Allah have any meaning?


Exactly. Names cannot be translated

They say that Allah has a meaning which is The God

Cheers
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 4:38 am
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I agree that somebody named 'Muhammad' in Arabic should be referred to as 'Muhammad' in any other language. But Muhammad does mean something in Arabic.

If you take Allah as God's Name in Arabic (though Allah Alone can 'name' Himself) and then propose that it should not be translated in English or other languages then I think it's worth considering. However, I do feel 'Allah' should imply or mean something at least in Arabic, even if that meaning cannot be conveyed sufficiently in any another language.
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 5:32 am
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The wrote:
I agree that somebody named 'Muhammad' in Arabic should be referred to as 'Muhammad' in any other language. But Muhammad does mean something in Arabic.


It does not matter what it means, because we are not referring to what it means rather to the name of such entity

for example, someone may be named Halim, which means forbearing, but he might be one of the most vicious criminals in the world, therefore the meaning of the name should not really imply that such entity adheres to the meaning

The same is true when to assign names to cities, like Paris for example

The wrote:
If you take Allah as God's Name in Arabic (though Allah Alone can 'name' Himself)


Yes He alone can name Himself and He did with the name Allah.

The wrote:

and then propose that it should not be translated in English or other languages then I think it's worth considering.


Cool

The wrote:
However, I do feel 'Allah' should imply or mean something at least in Arabic, even if that meaning cannot be conveyed sufficiently in any another language.


Well, if I mention Allah then I mentioned the name of the The only God

i.e. I mentioned the name of the Ilah Wahid

But Allah does not mean Al-Ilah, rather it is the name of Al-Ilah


Cheers
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 1:17 pm
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@ Well, if I mention Allah then I mentioned the name of the The only God
i.e. I mentioned the name of the Ilah Wahid

What you said above gives the impression that there are 'ilahs' other than 'Ilah Wahid'. But Allah Himself is very clear about the matter and says 'There is no Ilah except I". As such both Ilah and Ilah Wahid can only refer to the same Being.


What we have seen from the Quran so far is this:

That disbelievers do misuse the term 'ilah,' but the fact is that there are no multiple ilahs; there is only one Ilah.

Even the term 'Allah' is misused. Some say Allah has son or daughters or that He is "third of three". Of course, this does not mean that there are multiple Allahs; it is just that the disbelievers misuse the term.

In effect, we have established that in the true context (and not the disbelievers'), Ilah, One Ilah and Allah refer to the same One Being.


Let me now move to the verses that I talked about earlier. I start with 43:84:


And it is He who in heaven is Ilah and in earth is Ilah; He is the All-wise, the All-knowing.


If we understand Ilah as God, what the verse is saying is that "He is God in the heavens and in the earth."


My next verse is 6:3:


He is Allah in the heavens and the earth; He knows your secrets, and what you publish, and He knows what you are earning.


If we say Allah does not mean "The Ilah," or that it has no meaning and is only a label, then the verse merely explains that "He is Allah in the heavens and in the earth," which is obscure and explains nothing.

On the other hand, if we understand Allah as 'The Ilah/God,' then we get the following understanding: "He is the God in the heavens and in the earth". This is exactly what 43:84 says, and fits in with the context of both the verse perfectly.


In effect, Allah as merely a label does not give a context to 6:3, while Allah as 'The God' gives it a direction and a context that is reinforced by 43:84.
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 3:15 pm
Post subject:
I will not be around (at least won't be able to log in) for the next few days. I will reply to any post (and give an example to clarify my take on 6:3, if needed) when I log back in. Take care.
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 3:32 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
@ Well, if I mention Allah then I mentioned the name of the The only God
i.e. I mentioned the name of the Ilah Wahid

The wrote:

What you said above gives the impression that there are 'ilahs' other than 'Ilah Wahid'.


How this can possibly understood if I already said: I mentioned the name of the Ilah Wahid, i.e. the ONLY God?

The wrote:
But Allah Himself is very clear about the matter and says 'There is no Ilah except I". As such both Ilah and Ilah Wahid can only refer to the same Being.


But Ilah cannot be the same as Ilah Wahid, how can two words equal one word? Impossible

Ilah means god


Ilah Wahid means: God alone, or One God


The wrote:
What we have seen from the Quran so far is this:

That disbelievers do misuse the term 'ilah,' but the fact is that there are no multiple ilahs; there is only one Ilah.


I am really not concern what the disbelievers and even the believers say, what I am talking about is only a linguistic issue, it has nothing to do with what the people say

The wrote:
Even the term 'Allah' is misused. Some say Allah has son or daughters or that He is "third of three". Of course, this does not mean that there are multiple Allahs; it is just that the disbelievers misuse the term.


That is not a misuse, rather associating partners with Allah

The wrote:
In effect, we have established that in the true context (and not the disbelievers'), Ilah, One Ilah and Allah refer to the same One Being.


I am fine with that, but again, linguistically, Allah cannot be the composition of the device Al and the word Ilah


The wrote:
Let me now move to the verses that I talked about earlier. I start with 43:84:

And it is He who in heaven is Ilah and in earth is Ilah; He is the All-wise, the All-knowing.


If we understand Ilah as God, what the verse is saying is that "He is God in the heavens and in the earth."


That is right

The wrote:
My next verse is 6:3:


He is Allah in the heavens and the earth; He knows your secrets, and what you publish, and He knows what you are earning.


The wrote:
If we say Allah does not mean "The Ilah,"


But we already have an Arabic word for The Ilah, which is Al-Ilah, so why you want the name Allah to mean the same?

The wrote:
or that it has no meaning and is only a label,


Yes it is a name of His and only Him knows what it means

DO you know the meaning of the Name Lut?

How about the meaning of the name Firon?

Or Ismael?

Do we really need to know what these names mean?

The wrote:
then the verse merely explains that "He is Allah in the heavens and in the earth," which is obscure and explains nothing.


That is right the verse is telling us that His name is Allah, and it does not make sense that people read one verse from the Quran and that's about it, when they read the whole Quran, they should understand that Allah is the unique name of the One God

The wrote:
On the other hand, if we understand Allah as 'The Ilah/God,'


Again, we already have a clear Arabic word to mean The God, which is Al-Ilah, so my question remains intact, why you want to mix the name of the Allah with the clear Arabic word Al-Ilah which means The God?

The wrote:
then we get the following understanding: "He is the God in the heavens and in the earth". This is exactly what 43:84 says, and fits in with the context of both the verse perfectly.


But we already have verses that said so using the word to mean God which is Ilah

The wrote:
In effect, Allah as merely a label does not give a context to 6:3,


so all other verses where Lut, Ismael and Foron names are menioned, have no context to you?

The wrote:
while Allah as 'The God' gives it a direction and a context that is reinforced by 43:84.


Again, we already have a clear Arabic word to mean the God which is Al-Ilah

Cheers
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 3:33 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
I will not be around (at least won't be able to log in) for the next few days. I will reply to any post (and give an example to clarify my take on 6:3, if needed) when I log back in. Take care.


No worries mate, take your time
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 5:25 pm
Post subject:
Looks like the trip got delayed, so I will stick around some more.


@ But Ilah cannot be the same as Ilah Wahid, how can two words equal one word? Impossible
Ilah means god
Ilah Wahid means: God alone, or One God

Read correctly, buddy. I said Ilah and Ilah Wahid refer to the same being, not that they are one word.

If you think that Ilah is somebody other than Allah, then you contradict the Quran when God says, "There is no Ilah but I".


@I am really not concern what the disbelievers and even the believers say, what I am talking about is only a linguistic issue, it has nothing to do with what the people say

I am not concerned with what you say, rather with what the Quran says. The Quran tells us that Only Allah is Ilah, and it gets settled there. If you believe that there is an Ilah other than Allah, then find a verse for it.


@That is not a misuse, rather associating partners with Allah

"Allah is third of three" is plain English. Unless you also believe "Allah is third of three," then these are two different usage of Allah.


@ so all other verses where Lut, Ismael and Foron names are menioned, have no context to you?

I was expecting this argument where you would compare Allah with human names.

Consider this scenario: A man named Ismael, who is the king of certain country.

Now if he says "I am Ismael of this country" it doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if he says "I am King of this country" it does make sense.

Let us go a step further and say that his name is Malik rather than Ismael. Again, if he says "I am Malik of this country," where Malik means King, then it makes sense. But if Malik does not mean King, and is a meaningless name or label, then "I am Malik of this country" is an equally meaningless sentence. The same goes when you say Allah is a Name or label with no meaning and apply it to 6:3.


You had said that your "strongest argument" is that AlIlah can refer to a man-made "god". But only the disbelievers believe that there exists Ilah other than Allah. In essence, rather than following the erroneous concept of the disbelievers that there is an Ilah other than Allah and split hairs over it, we should listen to what the Quran says. I believe the Quran takes precedence, but you are trying to make an appeal to chirography, so we will look into that.


Whether Allah is a "combination" of Al and Ilah or not is the case you want to argue. Go ahead and talk about it, buddy.
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 6:21 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
Looks like the trip got delayed, so I will stick around some more.


Ok

The wrote:
@ But Ilah cannot be the same as Ilah Wahid, how can two words equal one word? Impossible
Ilah means god
Ilah Wahid means: God alone, or One God

Read correctly, buddy. I said Ilah and Ilah Wahid refer to the same being, not that they are one word.


Then again we are talking about two different things


Are you aware that I am talking from the ARABIC linguistic point of view?

It seems you are totally ignoring this fact

Let me corner you then

Refute this as extracted from the Quran

The Quran used the generic Arabic word to mean god which is Ilah, by referring to Allah and any other man made gods as well

How come then the word Allah mean Ilah? I am talking Arabic words (not English)

If you are going to repeat the same ignorance that Allah (Arabic word) is the compositions of the two Arabic words (Al + Ilah), then I am asking you what happened to the first Alif in the word Ilah? Why it is omitted?

And the most important question, If when we add the Al to Ilah, to make the word Allah, then this must mean that the word Al-Ilah cannot be a valid Arabic word, while the matter of the fact remains intact that Al-Ilah is a proper Arabic word to mean a generic god also. HOW COME?

PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTION INSTEAD OF WASTING OUR TIME WITH SOME UNFOUNDED CRAP THAT IS ONLY PARROTTED BY THE NON ARABIC SPEAKERS


The wrote:

If you think that Ilah is somebody other than Allah, then you contradict the Quran when God says, "There is no Ilah but I".


What the hell is that bro?

Look, it is not my problem that you TOTALLY misunderstand what I am talking about

I AM TALKING LINGUISTICALLY, therefore if you do not know Arabic, you should not debate me in such subject, you might however ask some friends of your who know Arabic and come back with their answers.

The wrote:
@I am really not concern what the disbelievers and even the believers say, what I am talking about is only a linguistic issue, it has nothing to do with what the people say

I am not concerned with what you say,


Why you are debating me in the subject then?

To prove me wrong? Fine with me, I welcome to be proven wrong, but to do so you need to answer the linguistic questions above, and when proven wrong, I will thank you too, here are the questions again:


The Quran used the generic Arabic word to mean god which is Ilah, by referring to Allah and any other man made gods as well

How come then the word Allah mean Ilah? I am talking Arabic words (not English)

If you are going to repeat the same ignorance that Allah (Arabic word) is the compositions of the two Arabic words (Al + Ilah), then I am asking you what happened to the first Alif in the word Ilah? Why it is omitted?

And the most important question, If when we add the Al to Ilah, to make the word Allah, then this must mean that the word Al-Ilah cannot be a valid Arabic word, while the matter of the fact remains intact that Al-Ilah is a proper Arabic word to mean a generic god also. HOW COME?

Please answer of find one to answer the above questions.

The wrote:
rather with what the Quran says.


And that is what I am talking about, the Quran used the generic word ILAH which mean God, being the one ad only God or another man made god it makes no difference, that is just a context, I AM BLOODY TALKING LINGUISTICALLY

Now why you want the name of Only God which is Allah to mean linguistically god?

Please answer the damn question

The wrote:
The Quran tells us that Only Allah is Ilah,


And I agreed with that, but that is A CONTEXT

The Arabic words Allah and Ilah cannot be the same linguistically, or do you think that are the same linguistically?

The wrote:
and it gets settled there. If you believe that there is an Ilah other than Allah, then find a verse for it.


What the hell are you talking about?

What is settled that you misunderstood what I am talking about, I AM BLOODY TALKING ARABIC WORDS not what the context say, please wake up.

Your stupid question above is dismissed


The wrote:
@That is not a misuse, rather associating partners with Allah

"Allah is third of three" is plain English. Unless you also believe "Allah is third of three," then these are two different usage of Allah.


Dismissed

The wrote:
@ so all other verses where Lut, Ismael and Foron names are menioned, have no context to you?

I was expecting this argument where you would compare Allah with human names.


Good for you, now explain it linguistically, not bloody emotionally or by some wishful thinking

The wrote:
Consider this scenario: A man named Ismael, who is the king of certain country.


And you consider these scenarios:

A man named Ismael, who is murderer.

Another man named Ismael, who is rapist.

Another man named Ismael, who is thug.

Therefore the name of anything does not really mean that the named entity should be what the name means.

It should be easy now.

The wrote:
Now if he says "I am Ismael of this country" it doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if he says "I am King of this country" it does make sense.


But the name Allah is not a title, rather a name, same with the name Ismael, it is not a title nor it describes what such entity is.

The wrote:
Let us go a step further and say that his name is Malik rather than Ismael. Again, if he says "I am Malik of this country," where Malik means King, then it makes sense. But if Malik does not mean King, and is a meaningless name or label, then "I am Malik of this country" is an equally meaningless sentence. The same goes when you say Allah is a Name or label with no meaning and apply it to 6:3.


The above is just pure rubbish

A name is a name

And a title is title

Please do not mix the two


The wrote:
You had said that your "strongest argument" is that AlIlah can refer to a man-made "god".



It seems you misunderstood that too, you are very confused indeed

I said that Allah as the God and Author of the Quran (not as a word) referred to other possible man made gods using the generic word Ilah

The wrote:
But only the disbelievers believe that there exists Ilah other than Allah. In essence, rather than following the erroneous concept of the disbelievers that there is an Ilah other than Allah and split hairs over it, we should listen to what the Quran says. I believe the Quran takes precedence, but you are trying to make an appeal to chirography, so we will look into that.

Whether Allah is a "combination" of Al and Ilah or not is the case you want to argue. Go ahead and talk about it, buddy.


holy crap, so if you know what my argument is exactly, why dont you answer it instead of wasting my time and yours? If you do not know the answer, it should be good for you to say I do not know

cheers
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 6:34 pm
Post subject:
@ Why you are debating me in the subject then?

To prove me wrong?

You were the one who misunderstood Ilah and started this thinking that you had something in there.


The Quran says that only Allah is "Ilah". If you find a verse where Allah has appointed an Ilah other than himself then present it. Else you are simply pussyfooting around by appealing to what disbelievers say. The disbelievers say "Allah is third of three". Imagine a disbeliever making it a "linguistic" pretext to contradict what the Quran clearly says.


@ If you are going to repeat the same ignorance that Allah (Arabic word) is the compositions of the two Arabic words (Al + Ilah), then I am asking you what happened to the first Alif in the word Ilah? Why it is omitted?

Stop being a pussyfooter. Get yourself educated on the matter and see what the opinion of Arab linguists is on the matter at hand.

Coming to the "missing alif" do you think this is the only known case? Can you present the calligraphy for lillah (li Allah)?
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 6:54 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
@ Why you are debating me in the subject then?

To prove me wrong?

You were the one who misunderstood Ilah and started this thinking that you had something in there.


Good, now explain to me how I misunderstood the Arabic word Ilah? Thank you

The wrote:
The Quran says that only Allah is "Ilah".


The Quran says it in context, not as linguistic meaning, how confused you are man? Like any non Arabic speaker, nothing new really

The wrote:
If you find a verse where Allah has appointed an Ilah other than himself then present it.


But I a not interested in doing so, it proves nothing to me even if it exists, however you should know that I know well there is no such non sense you spewed above in the Quran

The wrote:
Else you are simply pussyfooting around by appealing to what disbelievers say. The disbelievers say "Allah is third of three". Imagine a disbeliever making it a "linguistic" pretext to contradict what the Quran clearly says.


Fuk the disbelievers bound to hell, it is your pals the free inders who also claim so, and all ignorant non Arabic speakers

guess what Pal, such crap in English that the first letter for god in god is G, to be God, DOES NOT EXIST IN Arabic

I really do not understand why knowledgeable Muslims like you are not concentrating on the message only while leaving the linguistic issues to those who speak and studied the language

The wrote:
@ If you are going to repeat the same ignorance that Allah (Arabic word) is the compositions of the two Arabic words (Al + Ilah), then I am asking you what happened to the first Alif in the word Ilah? Why it is omitted?

Stop being a pussyfooter. Get yourself educated on the matter and see what the opinion of Arab linguists is on the matter at hand.


What matter mister non Arabic speaker?

The matter that you know no Arabic at all

For you god and God is like Ilah and Allah

please dismiss yourself

The wrote:

Coming to the "missing alif" do you think this is the only known case? Can you present the calligraphy for lillah (li Allah)?


here we go, why dont you explain to us why Le removed the Alif from Allah

and while you spinning to find an answer, why dont you explain to us how come Ya Allah is valid while Ya (Al-Nidaa) (calling device) can never have a word with AL after it?
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 6:59 pm
Post subject:
As expected more pussyfooting, dude. I will help you:


اللَّهِ Allah

لِلَّهِ li Allah
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 7:39 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
As expected more pussyfooting, dude. I will help you:


اللَّهِ Allah

لِلَّهِ li Allah


Well, mister ignorant and dumb bum, this example of yours really exposes you

The Alif in Allah must be omitted if the words Allah preceded by the Hraf Li, this is because yuou dumb bum if we do not omit it it will look like this

لالله

which means NOT ALLAH, therefore it must be omitted

In some other situations the omittion is optional:

The word Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??AllahÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â; one may say يا الله Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??yā AllahÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? (O Alah) with or without pronouncing the Hamza in Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Allah.

On the other hand

we have the this valid Arabic word الاله, al-ilah about which people like ignorant brother The wants to manipulate and make it Allah, which is fine ONLY if the such Arabic word الاله is not a word in the Arabic vocabulary any more, i.e. INVALID

The fact of the mater that the name Allah can never be written without the Al, like any of his other names with the excpetion of Alrahman) like Aziz & Al-Aziz, Rahim & Al-Rahim, this conclusively

This means that Allah and Alrahman are unique names of His and the letters Al cannot be omitted

I had this discussion with a fluent Arabic speaker from Egypt and I concluded that the other name of Allah (Alrahman) should never be translated the Al in cannot be dropped exactly as the name Allah

Keep dancing brother The
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 8:12 pm
Post subject:
Another lie, pussyfooter; there is no such concern that li would get assimilated with the alif and look like "not Allah". Li does not have an alif, only a small vowel.

Here is another example where 'alif' has been dropped and is opportune under the circumstance:

لِلْكَافِرِينَ

The Egyptian guy you alleged to have met was probably another runt who read half a book on Arabic and decided he knew all. And the two of you couldn't tell each other apart. Take care.
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 8:25 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
Another lie, pussyfooter; there is no such concern that li would get assimilated with the alif and look like "not Allah". Li does not have an alif, only a small vowel.

Here is another example where 'alif' has been dropped and is opportune under the circumstance:

لِلْكَافِرِينَ

The Egyptian guy you alleged to have met was probably another runt who read half a book on Arabic and decided he knew all. And the two of you couldn't tell each other apart. Take care.


But you still did not tell us, punk, why the alif is dropped?

Another the question, sharmoot
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 8:27 pm
Post subject:
Let's keep it at that

You believe that Allah is a combination of Al + Ilah

I do not believe so and for me Allah is a unique name like Alrahman

Time to agree to disagree

Salam

Added later:

And BTW the example you brought in is flawed, because we are not talking about what a HARF GAR like Li or Bi will do to the following word that starts with Alif

We are talking about what the definite device Al does to the following word that starts with Alif, like Ilah or any other word starting with Alif

Certainly the Al does not cause the alif to be omitted, as in Al-Aaraf, Al-Anfal, and even Al-Ilah, the likes of you who lacks Arabic need explain to us why in the case of Allah, the device Al caused the alif to be omitted
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 8:36 pm
Post subject:
The fact that dropping of alif is not restricted to the case of Allah should be enough to not allow any slapper to go speculating, but that is what you did.

If you want to know why alif is dropped then do a study on it. I don't come around to show slappers what's lacking in their assets. But here's something that might get you started:


So how did the change occur from al-ilah to Allah? According to Ibn `Ashur, a modern commentator from Tunisia, the “hamza: i” of al-[i]lah was eventually omitted to make Allah, due to its excessive use in reference to the supreme being. This is not uncommon in Arabic, for al-nas (pronounced annas: people) was originally al-[u]nas, but again, the “hamza: u” was omitted due to excessive use. In both cases, the older word may still be used.9 It would be reasonable to argue that due to its sacred status, Allah (God’s proper name) should not have to go through this kind of morphological metamorphosis. And yet it is precisely because of the value and respect accorded to it and to its reference (God) that it was understandably easier that it goes through such change.


If you think enough has been said then lock the thread, buddy. Take care. Very Happy
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 8:41 pm
Post subject:
If you are looking for a detailed explanation then look up Lane's; he offers both the points of view.
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 8:43 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
As expected more pussyfooting, dude. I will help you:


اللَّهِ Allah

لِلَّهِ li Allah


You example above is flawed, because the Li did not remove the Alif only, rather the Alif and Lam

Unlike when we use it with any other word that starts with Alif and Lam, like Al-Alameen, as in this case the Alif only in Al is omitted, see this verse:

3:96 ان اول بيت وضع للناس للذي ببكه مباركا وهدى للعالمين


see the word: للعالمين , Lilalameen, only the Alif in Al is omitted

Unlike your flawed example: لِلَّهِ , Lilah as in this case BOTH the ALIF and LAM are omitted, therefore the Al in Allah cannot be the definite Al

obviously you ignorant goons do not know what you are talking about.
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 8:45 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
If you think enough has been said then lock the thread, buddy. Take care. Very Happy



You go and lock it, I have no problem with that, I said all what I need to say that the Al in Allah is not the definite Al in Arabic, and the name Allah is a unique word that is only used explicit for Him as name like Alrahman

Salam
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 8:51 pm
Post subject:
There are many Arab linguists who have traced the word to 'ilah,' so I don't see why you have closed your mind to it. Anyway, this argument lost the decorum. Thanks for the discussion, buddy; take care.
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 9:01 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
There are many Arab linguists who have traced the word to 'ilah,' so I don't see why you have closed your mind to it. Anyway, this argument lost the decorum. Thanks for the discussion, buddy; take care.


Because no one of them explained why the Alif in Ilah is dropped after adding the Al, as well why the arabic word Al-Ilah is still valid word?

Their allegation is the one that should cause confusion trying to explain the unique name of Allah

For me, I do not need to explain a name of anything other than it is the name of such thing, therefore my allegation is one that should not cause any confusion, nor that I need to explain the mystery of dropping the alif in ilah

salam
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 9:13 pm
Post subject:
Was 'Allah' used before the revelation of the Quran? Or did it come into circulation with the revelation?
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 9:18 pm
Post subject:
See this photo, brother The:

Thumbnail, click to enlarge.


It lists some of the words that starts with the definite article Al, preceded by Harf Gar Li, in all cases only the Alif in Al is dropped

while in the example you brought لله, both letters in Al are dropped, this actually proves that the word Allah is unique and is certainly not like any other word starting with Al
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 9:25 pm
Post subject:
I will look at this more in-depth, brother.

I do think that Allah was used even before the revelation of the Quran. What do you think about it?
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 9:25 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
Was 'Allah' used before the revelation of the Quran? Or did it come into circulation with the revelation?


It seems it was before Islam as far as I believe, however Allah might have taught Adam His unique names especially that Allah taught Adam all the names
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 9:38 pm
Post subject:
See this verse brother The:

25:60 واذا قيل لهم اسجدوا للرحمن قالوا وما الرحمن انسجد لما تامرنا وزادهم نفورا

In which we read the unique name of Allah, Alrahman preceded by Li, and again only the alif is dropped, while in the case of Allah, both Alif and Lam are dropped

This implies to me that while the name Alrahamn is still unique to Allah, the name Allah stands on its own as the most unqiue name of Allah
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 9:39 pm
Post subject:
I too hold that 'Allah' was used in Arabic before the revelation of the Quran.

I am not so much insisting that Allah has to be Al + Ilah; but I do believe that Allah should mean something (especially in light of 6:3 and 43:84). Like in the case of of AlRahman, which I believe you understand as "The Compassionate".

The other thing was about alif being dropped in other usages, too; as in "bism" Allah. So I feel that it is neither impossible nor certain.
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 9:48 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
I too hold that 'Allah' was used in Arabic before the revelation of the Quran.

I am not so much insisting that Allah has to be Al + Ilah; but I do believe that Allah should mean something (especially in light of 6:3 and 43:84). Like in the case of of AlRahman, which I believe you understand as "The Compassionate".

The other thing was about alif being dropped in other usages, too; as in "bism" Allah. So I feel that it is neither impossible nor certain.


To be honest, i am not fuss about it too unless the kafirs will use it to prove one of their Tom and Jerry allegations

On the other hand, yes Bism, which is Bi + Ism we have the alif omitted in Ism, amazingly if we use the Bi before Allah, nothing is omitted i.e. بالله


Note: Got to go to bed, good night pal, will continue tomorrow inshaallah if I have anything else to say or discover

Salam
- Sun 21 Feb, 2010 10:00 pm
Post subject:
Cool, buddy. Sleep well. Take care.
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 4:19 am
Post subject:
That's right, brother. When 'bi' precedes Allah or Alghayb then the alif is not dropped, but it is curiously dropped in 'bism'. I think this is the only instance of 'ism' in Quran where the alif is dropped.
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 4:30 am
Post subject:
The wrote:
That's right, brother. When 'bi' precedes Allah or Alghayb then the alif is not dropped, but it is curiously dropped in 'bism'. I think this is the only instance of 'ism' in Quran where the alif is dropped.


Good morning bro

I believe Bism بسم can also be written Bi Ism بإسم

Like Ya Allah ياالله which can be written Yallah يالله
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 1:03 pm
Post subject:
That is the curious part, only in the instance of "bism' Allah is the alif dropped. There are other instances where the alif is retained.
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 2:55 pm
Post subject:
There are curious cases of alif being dropped, so I do not rule out 'Allah' as 'Al' + ''Ilah', neither do I insist that such is the case.


On the other hand, Ilah refers only to God. If somebody worships a stone and takes it as his Ilah, it doesn't mean that the stone really becomes his Ilah and can be called as such. The Quran plainly says that only Allah is Ilah, and that we have no Ilah other than Him. And since both of us stick to our respective stance over whether Ilah can be used only for Allah or that it can be used for others, we do have a disagreement over there. To clarify my standpoint, here is how the Quran answers the claim of multiple ilahs:

6:19 Say, what thing is the strongest in bearing testimony? Say, Allah; He is witness between me and you. And this Koran was revealed unto me, that I should admonish you thereby, and also those unto whom it shall reach. Do ye really profess that there are other aalihatan together with God? Say, I do not profess this. Say, verily He is one Ilah; and I am guiltless of what ye associate with Him.


Finally, we disagree over 6:3. I don't believe that 'Allah' with no meaning does justice to the verse. God says that He sends His messengers for guidance, and also gives particular instances like "We sent Noah," or "We sent Shuaib". Similarly, where we know Muhammad is God's messenger, "follow Muhammad" becomes reasonable (because we know he is God's messenger), But Noah, Shuaib, and Muhammad are messengers and instances of messengers, while Allah is God and does not have an instance.

Something is conveyed by "I am Allah's messenger," but saying "I am Allah's Abraham" doesn't carry the same connotation. Likewise, "He is the God in the heavens and the earth" conveys something, but "He is Allah in the heavens and the earth" doesn't.
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 5:47 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
There are curious cases of alif being dropped, so I do not rule out 'Allah' as 'Al' + ''Ilah', neither do I insist that such is the case.


Forget the Alif in Isam as it can be written Bi Ism, it cannot be grammatically incorrect

On the other hand, I am going to follow your stand, not to insist on what I alleged, while possibly in the future I will accept that Allah = Al + Ilah, but only after one knowledgeable human who can explain to me or to anyone why the Alif in Ilah is dropped after adding the Al to Ilah, there is no such rule in Arabic grammar, let's take the Arabic word Ard which starts with an Alif as example, we can see it in this verse without Al:

11:64 ويا قوم هذه ناقة الله لكم اية فذروها تاكل في ارض الله ولا تمسوها بسوء فياخذكم عذاب قريب

And when we add Al to it, the alif in Ard stays, i.e. Al-Ard, as seen below along with the same word without Al:

4:97 ان الذين توفاهم الملائكة ظالمي انفسهم قالوا فيم كنتم قالوا كنا مستضعفين في الارض قالوا الم تكن ارض الله واسعة فتهاجروا فيها فاولئك ماواهم جهنم وساءت مصيرا

Therefore, there is no such silly rule in Arabic that any word that starts with Alif, the Alif must be dropped when adding Al to it

What makes it harder is the example you have shown Lillah, as if we consider that Allah = Al + Ilah, the Li dropped both the Alif and Lam, despite the fact that for any Arabic word that has the definite article Al, if we use Li before it, then Li must omit the Alif only in the Al article. This implies to me that the Al in Allah is not the definite Al

The wrote:

On the other hand, Ilah refers only to God.


grammatically, Ilah should refer to any god

spiritually, Ilah should refer to the One and Only God

The wrote:
If somebody worships a stone and takes it as his Ilah, it doesn't mean that the stone really becomes his Ilah and can be called as such.


Of course it means that the stone is his god, however it does not mean that the stone is really his god, let's look at the following verse:

6:74 واذ قال ابراهيم لابيه ازر اتتخذ اصناما الهة اني اراك وقومك في ضلال مبين

Here is Ibrahim accusing his father of taking some stones as Aliha (gods), which is the plural of Ilah, the fact that there is only One and True Ilah who is Allah does not invalidate the grammatical use of the word Ilah, in fact in another verse Allah used the word Ilah to explicitly refer to other gods if any exists:

6:46 قل ارايتم ان اخذ الله سمعكم وابصاركم وختم علي قلوبكم من اله غير الله ياتيكم به انظر كيف نصرف الايات ثم هم يصدفون

See how it is said above: من اله غير الله, Mn Ilah Ghair Allah, i.e. which god other than Allah

Therefore the spiritual fact that there is only One and True God, cannot take the gramatical use of the word Ilah away from being a generic word to refer to any god

The wrote:
The Quran plainly says that only Allah is Ilah,


That is right, and that is something only BELIEVERS believe in, it is not proven nor it can be proven during the test of this life

The wrote:
and that we have no Ilah other than Him.


Exactly, but some unbelievers believe that there are gods (Aliha) other than Him

The wrote:
And since both of us stick to our respective stance over whether Ilah can be used only for Allah or that it can be used for others, we do have a disagreement over there.


It is not a vital disagreement though, the one we had before concerning Alameen is bigger than this one, in fact this one in comparison is almost nothing

I think the best course of action for me and you is to leave it open and not take one over the other, we can simply say (if asked) we do not know. let's leave the others indulge in their conjectures about Allah

The wrote:
To clarify my standpoint, here is how the Quran answers the claim of multiple ilahs:


And I have no objection of that at all, but that is something spiritual to believe in, the use of the word Ilah referring to the One and Only God does not in anyway invalidate its use when used to refer to other imaginary gods.

The wrote:
6:19 Say, what thing is the strongest in bearing testimony? Say, Allah; He is witness between me and you. And this Koran was revealed unto me, that I should admonish you thereby, and also those unto whom it shall reach. Do ye really profess that there are other aalihatan together with God? Say, I do not profess this. Say, verily He is one Ilah; and I am guiltless of what ye associate with Him.


The wrote:
Finally, we disagree over 6:3. I don't believe that 'Allah' with no meaning does justice to the verse.


6:3 is only using His name to refer to Him, in fact the expression هو الله, Hua Allah, i.e. He is Allah is used 9 times in the Quran:

6:3, 18:38, 28:70, 34:27, 39:4, 59:22, 59:23, 59:24 and 112:1

in all these verses, Allah is describing to us something about Him, i.e. He is Allah Who does this and that, in 6:3 it is Allah Who يعلم سركم وجهركم ويعلم ما تكسبون , i.e. He is Allah in the heaven and earth Who knows your secrets and what your reveal and what you earn. Such piece of information of knowing our secrets and what we reveal and what we earn is enough to identify such Knowledgeable Entity to be our One and Only God, we do not need a word to define Him as such, we need actions to define Him as such. In fact anyone can clam to be a god. like Firon for example, but did he know the secrets of his people? of course not.

Now, if you insist that the words in 6:3 that came after Hua Allah Fi Al-Samawat Wa Al-Ard must make Hua Allah so it means He is the God of the heaven and earth, then your insistence is not on solid groud because Allah used the generic word Ilah to mean as such:

43:84 وهو الذي في السماء اله وفي الارض اله وهو الحكيم العليم

And He is the One Who is in the heaven Ilah (God), and in the earth Ilah (God). How clear. You can see that the verse here never told us any Godly action done by Him

Now that Ilah is named Allah and when Allah talked about Himself (Hua Allah) , He always followed it by a great action of His, i.e. Allah want us to know about Him, not to know that His name Allah means the God. This is indeed silly. That is why I hesitate to accept that Allah means The God.

The wrote:
God says that He sends His messengers for guidance, and also gives particular instances like "We sent Noah," or "We sent Shuaib". Similarly, where we know Muhammad is God's messenger, "follow Muhammad" becomes reasonable (because we know he is God's messenger), But Noah, Shuaib, and Muhammad are messengers and instances of messengers, while Allah is God and does not have an instance.


What you say is fine with me, but that does not in anyway explain the meaning of the word Allah, for me the word means the most unique name of Allah (so far)

The wrote:
Something is conveyed by "I am Allah's messenger," but saying "I am Allah's Abraham" doesn't carry the same connotation. Likewise, "He is the God in the heavens and the earth" conveys something, but "He is Allah in the heavens and the earth" doesn't.


He is God in the heaven and earth was used in 43:84 so what is new in 6:3? instead of He is God in the heaven and the earth, it is He is the God in the heaven and the earth (you reckon)?

It holds no water dear brother

Salam
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 6:12 pm
Post subject:
@ Forget the Alif in Isam as it can be written Bi Ism, it cannot be grammatically incorrect

Why forget it? Can you explain why alif is dropped in 'bism' Allah but retained elsehwere?


Looks like we might have a go at each other again, brother. : grin :
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 6:20 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
@ Forget the Alif if Isam as it can be written Bi Ism, it cannot be grammatically incorrect

Why forget it? Can you explain why alif is dropped in 'bism' Allah but retained elsehwere?


I really dont know why they removed the alif, however I read in the past (many years ago) that it can be written with Alif, I will try to find it for you, this is like Ya Allah, and Yallah

However with Li, it is a known grammatical rule that any word with Al, if we add Li to it, then the alif in Al must be removed otherwise it will look La on its own and cause massive confusion in understanding the definite noun that follows, you can see this rule clearly in the Quran where all words with Li and Al, the alif is dropped

The wrote:
Looks like we might have a go at each other again, brother. : grin :


Look, it does not need to, my argument is not conclusive neither yours, but I feel without any bias to myself that my argument is a bit stronger than yours, in fact most English translators do not translate the name Allah

The good thing out of this that we turned aggressive against each other then we became mellow again, which means that no hard feelings

Salam
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 6:45 pm
Post subject:
@ I really dont know why they removed the alif, however I read in the past (many years ago) that it can be written with Alif, I will try to find it for you, this is like Ya Allah, and Yallah

It will be better when there is a definite explanation as to why the alif is missing in 'bism' Allah.


@ However with Li, it is a known grammatical rule that any word with Al, if we add Li to it, then the alif in Al must be removed otherwise it will look La on its own and cause massive confusion in understanding the definite noun that follows, you can see this rule clearly in the Quran where all words with Li and Al, the alif is dropped


We can deduce the dropped alif from the Quran itself.


@Look, it does not need to, my argument is not conclusive neither yours, but I feel without any bias to myself that my argument is a bit stronger than yours, in fact most English translators do not translate the name Allah

There are many translators who do translate it as 'God'. However, I am not aware of many who think that Allah is a meaningless label, brother. So, I do sense a bias, possibly due to a lack of awareness.


@ The good thing out of this that we turned aggressive against each other then we became mellow again, which means that no hard feelings

That's right, brother, there's no point in getting carried away.


@ grammatically, Ilah should refer to any god

That is where we disagree. The Quran says very clearly that Allah Alone is Ilah, so I don't see how it can be any other way.
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 6:46 pm
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The wrote:
@ Forget the Alif in Isam as it can be written Bi Ism, it cannot be grammatically incorrect

Why forget it? Can you explain why alif is dropped in 'bism' Allah but retained elsehwere?

grin :


See this link bro:

http://forum.sh3bwah.maktoob.com/t63444.html

in there you can see that they wrote it باسم الله, with the alif, so it is grammatically correct
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 6:49 pm
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The wrote:

@ grammatically, Ilah should refer to any god

That is where we disagree. The Quran says very clearly that Allah Alone is Ilah, so I don't see how it can be any other way.



I just like to reply to that for now,

Fine, but the Quran also used the word to refer to other man made gods

So for me and you, there is only One Ilah, but for others, there are other Ilahs than Allah

That is why the Quran is full with the sentence that there is no Ilah except Allah

i.e. the Quran informed us with the name of the only Ilah
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 6:53 pm
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I think this will help us resolve some misunderstanding, brother. What do you mean by 'god' when you say "grammatically, Ilah should refer to any god".

I ask this because I think now I understand where we are not looking eye to eye.
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 6:56 pm
Post subject:
I want to reply to this one too

The wrote:
@ I really dont know why they removed the alif, however I read in the past (many years ago) that it can be written with Alif, I will try to find it for you, this is like Ya Allah, and Yallah

It will be better when there is a definite explanation as to why the alif is missing in 'bism' Allah.


The Quran grammar in general does not follow the man made grammar rules, so you might say why it is not the case with the word Allah then? Which is a good point of course. I say because all other names like Aziz, Al-Aziz, Rahim, Al-Rahim, etc etc are consistent with the man made rules, in fact the man made grammar rules were invented based on the Quran, that is why the Quran sometimes violates it, because the Quran did not come with grammar explanation. This tells me that Allah is a unique word that is even different to all other names from which you can remove the Al and still be used with Allah, only Allah is the one word for which if you remove the Al, you end up with non sensible word, Lah. (and I mean word, not root)
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 7:01 pm
Post subject:
I am repeating this because you might miss it as we posted at almost the same time, and this one got stuck on the previous page:

I think this will help us resolve some misunderstanding, brother. What do you mean by 'god' when you say "grammatically, Ilah should refer to any god".

I ask this because I think now I understand where we are not looking eye to eye.
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 7:14 pm
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@ Fine, but the Quran also used the word to refer to other man made gods

The Quran employs the word to tell the disbelievers that they are wrong, brother. It tells them they have taken as aalihatan others than Allah, for which they have no authority, and have invented falsehood. It is condemning them, not endorsing its usage.

These, our people, have chosen (other) aalihatan beside Him though they bring no clear warrant (vouchsafed) to them. And who doth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie concerning Allah?

It's like the words "Allah is third of three" being found in the Quran. The words are present in the Quran, but the Quran doesn't endorse them.
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 7:17 pm
Post subject:
The wrote:
I am repeating this because you might miss it as we posted at almost the same time, and this one got stuck on the previous page:

I think this will help us resolve some misunderstanding, brother. What do you mean by 'god' when you say "grammatically, Ilah should refer to any god".

I ask this because I think now I understand where we are not looking eye to eye.


I mean that the word mean any god real or man made, only the context of its sentence should determine which god we are talking about, real or man made


However for a believer like you or me, we know well that there is no other god than Allah, but that does not in anyway invalidate any context of using the word to refer to any man made and imaginary god, the Quran used the word Ilah and its plural Aliha many times to refer to man made gods or imaginary gods

in fact, the arabic word Al-Ilah can never be understood to refer to the one and only God unless it is put in such context or just taken for granted by believers like you and me that it means The Only God

Howveer using the word Allah alone clearly and explicitly if used by me, you or any kafir, it means the unique name of the God of the Quran, about Whom the Quran says He is the Only Ilah
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 7:31 pm
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@ I mean that the word mean any god real or man made, only the context of its sentence should determine which god we are talking about, real or man made

I can understand the real 'god,' but how can there be a man-made 'god'? A man-made god is simply a falsehood. Refer to my post above, buddy.


@ However for a believer like you or me, we know well that there is no other god than Allah, but that does not in anyway invalidate any context of using the word to refer to any man made and imaginary god, the Quran used the word Ilah and its plural Aliha many times to refer to man made gods or imaginary gods

Refer to my post above.

@ in fact, the arabic word Al-Ilah can never be understood to refer to the one and only God unless it is put in such context or just taken for granted by believers like you and me that it means The Only God

I don't know what you mean by that. When Allah says He Alone is Ilah, then Ilah can only be understood to refer to Him.

@ Howveer using the word Allah alone clearly and explicitly if used by me, you or any kafir, it menas the God of the Quran, about which the Quran says He is the Only Ilah

Many Christians use the word to refer to 'Allah' in their Bible, who has a son. Likewise the Pagans also used Allah to refer to the one who they believed has daughters. So that's incorrect, brother.
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 7:42 pm
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The wrote:
@ I mean that the word mean any god real or man made, only the context of its sentence should determine which god we are talking about, real or man made

I can understand the real 'god,' but how can there be a man-made 'god'? A man-made god is simply a falsehood. Refer to my post above, buddy.


Why read it again? I already read it

It seems you get that if the word Ilah is used to refer to a man made god or an imaginary god, then that god exists?

This is silly, man

The wrote:
@ However for a believer like you or me, we know well that there is no other god than Allah, but that does not in anyway invalidate any context of using the word to refer to any man made and imaginary god, the Quran used the word Ilah and its plural Aliha many times to refer to man made gods or imaginary gods

Refer to my post above.


But the problem is at your end by thinking that by using the word Ilah to refer to false gods, it means that those gods exist

I really donot know how to solve such problem of yours


The wrote:
@ in fact, the arabic word Al-Ilah can never be understood to refer to the one and only God unless it is put in such context or just taken for granted by believers like you and me that it means The Only God

I don't know what you mean by that. When Allah says He Alone is Ilah, then Ilah can only be understood to refer to Him.


See how the problem is at your end, well I know that as a believer but the same One and Only God referred to those man made gods using the word Ilah

If you have a problem with that, then you should have a problem with the Quran

The wrote:
@ Howveer using the word Allah alone clearly and explicitly if used by me, you or any kafir, it menas the God of the Quran, about which the Quran says He is the Only Ilah

Many Christians use the word to refer to 'Allah' in their Bible, who has a son. Likewise the Pagans also used Allah to refer to the one who they believed has daughters. So that's incorrect, brother.


That is why the Quarn replied to them and accused them of being kafirs, this is because they talk about Allah, i.e. the nae of the God of the Quran, i.e. the One and Only God, had they say that jesus (who is their manmade god) had a son, the Quran would not have cared, because they are not talking about Allah
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 7:56 pm
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@That is why the Quarn replied to them and accused them of being kafirs, this is because they talk about Allah

Then why did you claim that even if a "kafir" uses the word Allah he is referring to God of Quran? Your claim was erroneous.


I could hardly make anything of the rest of what you posted, buddy.

I will leave it at this: Anybody who says that Allah or Ilah can refer to other than God is a disbeliever and has invented a falsehood.

21:25 there is no Ilah other than I
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