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AhmedBahgat wrote:
parvez_mushtaq wrote:
salam
before making a counter to your post , i request you to define the following types with verses from quran and examples
AhmedBahgat wrote:
SHIRK means that the action of SHIRK has been committed, and that is how I type SHIRK, through different actions, i.e. when I agreed that SHIRK is two types, I agreed based on the following notions:
1- Shirk type 1: is committed by a certain action
2- Shirk type 2: is committed by a different action
Mushtaq
Salam brother
Sure, despite that what you after is already explained in details through that link. But not to worry give me some time and I will compose something just for you
Salam
wsalam
this is a request
pl don't mistake me
pl make it short and sweet
Mushtaq
Posted:
Wed 25 Nov, 2009 5:30 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
parvez_mushtaq wrote:
salam
before making a counter to your post , i request you to define the following types with verses from quran and examples
AhmedBahgat wrote:
SHIRK means that the action of SHIRK has been committed, and that is how I type SHIRK, through different actions, i.e. when I agreed that SHIRK is two types, I agreed based on the following notions:
1- Shirk type 1: is committed by a certain action
2- Shirk type 2: is committed by a different action
parvez_mushtaq wrote:
wsalam
this is a request
Salam
Certainly it was, so I am not disputing that at all, the objective here is a fruitful discussion, we may be a bit aggressive, but hopefully there will be fruit at the end, I will excuse the aggression due to the amount of anger that might have been built up inside both of us (for different reasons of course) about what happened to our great religion and still happening
parvez_mushtaq wrote:
pl don't mistake me
Sure, and I hope that you do not mistake me either
parvez_mushtaq wrote:
pl make it short and sweet
Mushtaq
I am not sure how can I make it so? When I write my thoughts and studies, I hate to have a time barrier over what I need to say
Certainly the subject in hand needs a lot to say, this is because of its great importance
Are most Muslims Mushrikoon while they perceive not?
This is how I perceive it, that certainly they are, and certainly they are not aware of it. Their ignorance is due to the fact that they lack the knowledge of the Quran. Now, this knowledge is only taught by Allah, and I am sure that Allah will teach it to those who deserve it, those who care about it and admire it and take the divine laws from it only. On the other hand I also agree that so many of those so called Quran aloners have lost the plot, sounds like a contradiction, hey. Well, the Quran told us so many times about those who think of themselves as being believers while the fact of the matter that they are not, and also said by the Quran that they do not perceive such fact that they are not believers. Now, a Muslim thinking of the self to be a believer must also think of the self that he/she understands the words of Allah quite well, despite that they never ponder upon it. Now, for those who ponder upon the Quran like many of the aloners yet they are confused, I guess that only Allah knows the cause and knows why He made them confused about it. I can only guess that they are not sincere, but that is just a guess, because I will never know if a person is really sincere or not even if that person shows all the signs of sincerity all year long, I am sure you should know what I am talking about.
Now for the matter in hand, which is shirk
Well, if any person is identified as a Mushrik, then it means that such person has committed an action of shirk
Such action can be a mere saying or some deeds
The saying of shirk is quite obvious for a child, this is what we are taught when we were kids and can logically understand it with children minds, that if a person declares that there is other gods next to Allah, then such person must be a Mushrik. Of course it is logically and correctly assumed that such person believes in what he declares in public.
The above obvious type of shirk was explained clearly in the Quran using one single word, let?????????????????????¢??s see:
Then, on the Day of Judgment, He will cover them with shame, and say: Where are My 'partners' concerning whom ye used to dispute (with the godly)? Those endued with knowledge will say: This Day, indeed, are the Unbelievers covered with shame and misery,- [The Quran ; 16:27]
ثُمَّ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُخْزِيهِمْ وَيَقُولُ أَيْنَ شُرَكَآئِيَ الَّذِينَ كُنتُمْ تُشَاقُّونَ فِيهِمْ قَالَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْعِلْمَ إِنَّ الْخِزْيَ الْيَوْمَ وَالْسُّوءَ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ (27)
-> See what Allah will say to the Mushrikoon of such obvious type on the JD: أَيْنَ شُرَكَآئِيَ, i.e. Where are My partners. Can see the MY
Now we need to stop and explain what does not need to be explained, but let me do it so I am very clear:
When I say My associate, it should mean for any person, that the associate is associated TO ME, not to anyone else
I.e. Allah has SHURKAA (ASSOCIATES), i.e. there are other gods next to Allah.
An example of that is clearly the Christians who think of Isa as a god next to Allah, another clear example is the Mushrikoon of Quraish who worshipped statues to get them nearer to Allah. Clearly all these people are Mushrikoon.
Here is another example:
And on the day when He will say: Call on My associates whom you alleged to be. So they will call on them, but they will not answer them, and We will make between them a ruin. [The Quran ; 18:52]
وَيَوْمَ يَقُولُ نَادُوا شُرَكَائِيَ الَّذِينَ زَعَمْتُمْ فَدَعَوْهُمْ فَلَمْ يَسْتَجِيبُوا لَهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا بَيْنَهُم مَّوْبِقًا (52)
-> Again see how it was said: نَادُوا شُرَكَائِيَ الَّذِينَ زَعَمْتُمْ, Call on My associates whom you alleged to be. I.e. Allah is saying MY associates, i.e. gods like Him.
And that is the first and very obvious type of Shirk, the word شُرَكَائِيَ, ShurakaaiMy Associates was used 5 times in the whole Quran (16:27, 18:52, 28:62, 28:74 & 41:47), trying to be brief as per request, not sure if it is sweet though.
Now, if I say the following to you:
Your associates. Then I must mean associates who are associated to you, not to me.
Also if I say the following about an absent group of people:
Their associates. Then I must mean associates who are associated to them, not to me nor to you.
That must be very clear too and under any language by the way.
Let?????????????????????¢??s look at a few examples from the Quran:
22: And on the day when We gather them together, then We say to those who are polytheists: Where are your associates whom you were asserting?
23: Then their contention would be nothing but that they would say: By Allah, our Lord, we were not polytheists.
24: See how they lied against their own souls, and that which they forged has turned away from them. [The Quran ; 6:22-24]
وَيَوْمَ نَحْشُرُهُمْ جَمِيعًا ثُمَّ نَقُولُ لِلَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُواْ أَيْنَ شُرَكَآؤُكُمُ الَّذِينَ كُنتُمْ تَزْعُمُونَ (22)
ثُمَّ لَمْ تَكُن فِتْنَتُهُمْ إِلاَّ أَن قَالُواْ وَاللّهِ رَبِّنَا مَا كُنَّا مُشْرِكِينَ (23)
انظُرْ كَيْفَ كَذَبُواْ عَلَى أَنفُسِهِمْ وَضَلَّ عَنْهُم مَّا كَانُواْ يَفْتَرُونَ (24)
-> The verse above is very clear, firstly it tells us about those who committed an action of shirk: ثُمَّ نَقُولُ لِلَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُواْ , i.e. then We say to those who are polytheists, this is not an accurate translation btw, I just could not find an English word to imply a VERB of shirk so I used the words those who are polytheists but literally it should be Those who committed an action of shirk. Now what comes next is very important, see what will be said to them: أَيْنَ شُرَكَآؤُكُمُ, Where are your associates, i.e. associates who are associated to them not to Allah.
-> And as I told you earlier that those Mushrikoon do not perceive that they are indeed Mushrikoon, see: Then their contention would be nothing but that they would say: By Allah, our Lord, we were not polytheists. See, a clear cut Mushrik who is worshipping another god as a god next to Allah (the first type of Shirk we talked about) cannot really deny the crime. But with those who commit the second type of shirk which does not involve any physical worshipping to other gods rather obeying other man made laws which made associated to Allah, they really think that they are not Mushrikoon, I am sure that they are surely confused and misguided, such confusion and misguidance are clearly explained in the next verse: See how they lied against their own souls, and that which they forged has turned away from them. So what is that which they forged, you reckon? I can tell you with high certainty that it is all these laws they invented and associated to Allah through their man made books of hadith then through their so called Ulamaa, those so called Ulamaa are nothing but THEIR ASSOCIATES
Let me show you another clear verse of how those Ulamaa forge lies about Allah:
And do not say, as what your tongues describe is already lies: This is lawful and this is prohibited, in order to forge against Allah lies; indeed, those who forge against Allah lies will not succeed. [The Quran ; 16:116]
وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ لِمَا تَصِفُ أَلْسِنَتُكُمُ الْكَذِبَ هَذَا حَلاَلٌ وَهَذَا حَرَامٌ لِّتَفْتَرُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ الْكَذِبَ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَفْتَرُونَ عَلَى اللّهِ الْكَذِبَ لاَ يُفْلِحُونَ (116)
-> See how the verse started And do not say, as what your tongues describe is already lies: , see how what might be against Allah is already described as FALSE before we are told what is that that we should not say, let?????????????????????¢??s see what we should never say : هَذَا حَلاَلٌ وَهَذَا حَرَامٌ , i.e. This is lawful, and this is prohibited, again it was described as lies associated to Allah: لِّتَفْتَرُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ الْكَذِبَ ٌ , i.e. in order to forge against Allah lies; the problem for those who suggest that this is halal and that is haram without any sanction by Allah is simply as follow: indeed, those who forge against Allah lies will not succeed. Well, I am sure you have seen millions of Muslims who say this is halal and that is haram, every Muslim Dick and Harry can be a Mufti on a flash, your mosque Imam, your teacher, your friend, your father, you mother, your bother, bloody oath, every one of them, almost.
I am not sure what is the reason of the warning of the above verse then? Yep, bloody ignore it and follow the crap man made books of invented hearsay and doubted hadith that is bloody full of, that is haram and this is halal.
Well, let me tell you something dear brother, if you follow any human in their suggestion that something is halal and another is haram, then such adviser of yours will be your associate, and you will be clearly committing the crime of shirk. See this verse:
Or are there for them associates who have prescribed for them of the religion what Allah has not sanctioned? And if not for the decisive word, it would have been judged between them; and indeed, the unjust will have a painful torture. [The Quran ; 42:21]
أَمْ لَهُمْ شُرَكَاء شَرَعُوا لَهُم مِّنَ الدِّينِ مَا لَمْ يَأْذَن بِهِ اللَّهُ وَلَوْلَا كَلِمَةُ الْفَصْلِ لَقُضِيَ بَيْنَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ (21)
-> See, أَمْ لَهُمْ شُرَكَاء شَرَعُوا لَهُم مِّنَ الدِّينِ مَا لَمْ يَأْذَن بِهِ اللَّهُ, i.e. Or are there for them associates who have prescribed for them of the religion what Allah has not sanctioned? Please tell me, does not verse 42:21 clearly describes the shirk action by most Muslims for over 1200 years? See the words are there for them associates, i.e. THEIR associates the ones we talked about earlier through verses 6:22-24
How many Shiekhs, Mullahs, Imams and Muftis prescribed and still prescribe for us so many things in the religion that Allah never sanctioned in His Quran? Can't get clearer than this.
Let's have a look at another example of such type of shirk, a shirk for which you have associates, i.e. your associates, and see something that is prescribed by them which Allah never sanctioned:
And thus have their associates made it pleasing to most of the polytheists the killing of their children, that they may cause them to turn back and confuse for them their religion; and if Allah had willed, they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge. [The Quran ; 6:137]
وَكَذَلِكَ زَيَّنَ لِكَثِيرٍ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ قَتْلَ أَوْلاَدِهِمْ شُرَكَآؤُهُمْ لِيُرْدُوهُمْ وَلِيَلْبِسُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ دِينَهُمْ وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ مَا فَعَلُوهُ فَذَرْهُمْ وَمَا يَفْتَرُونَ (137)
-> See how it was said: شُرَكَآؤُهُمْ, i.e. Their associates, not the associates of Allah: And thus have their associates made it pleasing to most of the polytheists - and here is what they prescribed: - the killing of their children
The problem for those who obey other humans with Allah in matters that are related to the religion and are never sanctioned by Him is this, they think they are not Mushrikoon, even those who are obeyed (their associates) will deny that those who obeyed them (the polytheists) were worshipping them:
28: And on the day when We will gather them all together, then We will say to those who associated others (with Allah): Stay in your places, you and your associates; then We will separate between them, and their associates will say: You did not worship us:
29: And sufficient is Allah as Witness between us and you that we were unaware of your worshipping. [The Quran ; 10:28-29]
وَيَوْمَ نَحْشُرُهُمْ جَمِيعًا ثُمَّ نَقُولُ لِلَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُواْ مَكَانَكُمْ أَنتُمْ وَشُرَكَآؤُكُمْ فَزَيَّلْنَا بَيْنَهُمْ وَقَالَ شُرَكَآؤُهُم مَّا كُنتُمْ إِيَّانَا تَعْبُدُونَ (28)
فَكَفَى بِاللّهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمْ إِن كُنَّا عَنْ عِبَادَتِكُمْ لَغَافِلِينَ (29)
-> See, there is a huge difference between the first type of shirk for which Allah refers to as My associates and the second type of shirk for which Allah refers to as Your associates & Their associates
The alleged associates of Allah do not really exist, and even if they do exist as creatures, like Isa or the sun, or the angels etc etc (all these creatures were and still worshipped as gods by many people), will these creatures be punished because some idiot people took them as gods? Of course not, certainly Isa cannot be punished for the crime of shirk committed by some other people and he has nothing to do with it, likewise the sun and any other creature that is worshipped by some ignorant humans.
But certainly with the other type of shirk in which some people (polytheists) take religious rules from other humans (their associates) in the religion which were never sanctioned by Allah, we expect that both parties should be punished:
- The polytheists for being polytheists
- Their associates for prescribing in the religion of Allah that which is never sanctioned by Him.
So you should logically expect a conflict and an argument between the two parties on the day of account. And that is exactly what the above two verses are telling us: And on the day when We will gather them all together, then We will say to those who associated others (with Allah): Stay in your places, you and your associates; see how both parties will be stunned: Stay in your places, you and your associates , then both will be separated, then their associates will deny that the polytheists were worshipping them: then We will separate between them, and their associates will say: You did not worship us. They are not lying actually, they are only confused because they did not know that by others obeying them in matters that are related to the religion of Allah which Allah never sanctioned, they took them as their associates while becoming polytheists themselves. Their associates will even seek the testimony of Allah's knowledge that they were unaware that those polytheists were worshipping them, so the associates will say: And sufficient is Allah as Witness between us and you that we were unaware of your worshipping. Again, how clear is that.
Indeed Allah mentioned the second type of Shirk using the two words شُرَكَآؤُكُمُShurakaakum & شُرَكَآؤُهُمْShurakaahum, i.e. Your associates & Their associates respectively 15 times, compared with the 5 times He talked about the first type of Shirk represented by the word شُرَكَائِيَ, ShurakaaiMy associates this implies that the second type of shirk is far more common by humans as far as I believe.
It is also clear that the majority of the Muslims are committing shirk without even realizing it, just look at how most Muslims talk about the hearsay hadith and prophet Mohammad while they hardly talk about Allah through His Quran, they even reach the extreme level of shirk when they mention Allah and His prophet in the same sentence they only praise the prophet and not Allah, they even abbreviate the name Allah to the letter A in (SAW) while the name Mohammad is written in full and never been abbreviated, we have seen the kafirs on FFI web site doing it with the name Mohammad by abbreviating it to Mo, so the Mushrikoon from among the Muslims followed their footsteps and did it with the name Allah and made it A, no wonder we read the following verse in the Quran
And most of them do not believe in Allah except while being polytheists. [The Quran ; 12:106]
وَمَا يُؤْمِنُ أَكْثَرُهُمْ بِاللّهِ إِلاَّ وَهُم مُّشْرِكُونَ (106)
In fact most Muslims are committing both types of shirk, shirk type 1 in which they put Muhammed in a position that is higher or above all prophets in total rejection to what Allah commanded them in the Quran, and almost putting him at the same level of Allah. And shirk type 2 in which they invented and made divine so many religious laws through their man made books of hadith, laws that were never sanctioned by Allah, like killing the married adulterers, despite the fact that married adulterers may already have young children through their marriage, it is like punishing the criminals and the innocents at the same time, the innocent children of married adulterers when they lose one or even both parents in the most cruel way, yet the outcome is silly, the outcome of killing them makes no sense, because they will eventually die and return to their Lord For Whom it does not matter if they lived 20 years or 950 years, they will eventually get their divine punishment from Allah and on that day, even living 950 years will be like living for an hour of day.
The above shirk by most Muslims is so wide spread, the problem we are talking about in here is severe and rooted, the solution must be very radical, and I believe it will eventually happen by Allah Himself, by radically sending His wrath upon the earth and those who live on it.
Here is a simple example of how such shirk problem is very rooted between so many Muslims, in a cemetery in Egypt I photographed this photo myself, the photo is about a grave of someone with the names of Allah & Muhammed next to each other, even the name Muhammed is slightly bigger than the name Allah:
From all the above, this is what I meant by two types of shirk:
1- Shirk type 1 by committing a certain action, i.e. by taking other creatures as gods next to Allah
2- Shirk type 2 by committing a different action, i.e. by taking invented religious rules from humans which are never sanctioned by Allah
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Fri 27 Nov, 2009 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Wed 25 Nov, 2009 8:05 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Salam brother parvez
Can you please not reply to my above comment yet, as I just read something in one of today's Egyptian newspapers which I believe should relates to something that I stated above, so I copied the Arabic news into another comment that I have to compose after thinking for quite some time, so bloody shpcking
I will compose it when I come back from work today inshallah, i believe it is worth sharing it especially under the view of my last comment
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Salam brother parvez and all
In my pre last comment I used the following Quran verse as an example of what the associates of the polytheists may be commanding them to do
And thus have their associates made it pleasing to most of the polytheists the killing of their children, that they may cause them to turn back and confuse for them their religion; and if Allah had willed, they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge. [The Quran ; 6:137]
وَكَذَلِكَ زَيَّنَ لِكَثِيرٍ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ قَتْلَ أَوْلاَدِهِمْ شُرَكَآؤُهُمْ لِيُرْدُوهُمْ وَلِيَلْبِسُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ دِينَهُمْ وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ مَا فَعَلُوهُ فَذَرْهُمْ وَمَا يَفْتَرُونَ (137)
Clearly, the associates command the polytheists to kill their children, they even decorated such evil act for them.
That is what I read today in an Egyptian newspaper. Almost every day I have to go through many of the online Egyptian newspapers, just to keep myself up to date to what is going on in such so called Muslim country
Yesterday I read a horrible crime out of the zillions horrible crimes that happens on a daily basis in that country.
The crime is indeed disgusting, in brief a woman killed her 2 years old son and 4 years daughter of one of her sisters in laws, she also tried to kill the 4 years old son of another sister in law, this is how it is posted in the newspaper:
جريمة «الهجانة» استغرقت ساعتين.. والجيران أنقذوا الطفل «يوسف».. والمتهمة تفننت فى ذبح الضحيتين
كتب فاروق الدسوقى وفاطمة أبوشنب ٢٥/ ١١/ ٢٠٠٩
ساعتان هى مدة الجريمة البشعة التى شهدتها منطقة عزبة الهجانة بمدينة نصر.. تفننت المتهمة فى تقطيع جثتى ابنها وابنة شقيقة زوجها إلى أشلاء.. وكانت تشرع فى قتل يوسف «٤سنوات» ابن شقيقة زوجها الأخرى..
المتهمة توجهت إلى مسرح الجريمة قبل الحادث بساعات وهى تحمل سكيناً و«سنته» ونفذت جريمتها.. اصطحبت الضحيتين والطفل يوسف الذى نجا من الموت إلى شقتها بالطابق الأرضى وبدأت جريمتها بقتل طفلها ثم طفلة شقيقة زوجها.
قالت شقيقتا زوج المتهمة إنها تدعى الجنون للإفلات من العقوبة وقررتا أنها فعلت ذلك للانتقام بسبب غيرتها الشديدة من الأسرة وإنهم يتمنون إعدامها وتقطيعها فى ميدان عام.
التقت «المصرى اليوم» بالطفل يوسف «٤ سنوات» الذى نجا من الموت قال: «هاجر قتلت يامن وفاتن توسلت إليها بعدم قتلها وظلت تصرخ وتنادى على أمها إلا أنها قامت بطعنها بالسكين».
والدة الضحية فاتن قالت: «قطعت ابنتى أشلاء حرام عليها ذنب الطفلين إيه.. المتهمة ابنة عمتى إلا أنها من يوم ما تزوجت وهى غيرانة مننا، منذ أسبوعين اتهمتنى أنا وأشقائى بأعمال السحر ومحاولة إيذائها فاتصلنا بشقيقها ومن أسبوع أثناء جلوسها معنا أمام التليفزيون فوجئنا بها تقول إن الأشخاص الموجودين فى التليفزيون يتحدثون معها وهى تكلمهم ورغم ذلك كانت تقرأ القرآن وتصلى الصلوات فى أوقاتها فلو هى «ملبوسة» مثلما تقول لما كانت استطاعت قراءة القرآن».
يوم الحادث خرجت من المنزل - الكلام لوالدة الضحية - فى وقت الظهيرة وبصحبتها طفلها «يامن» عارياً تماماً من ملابسه، فاتصلت بشقيقيها للبحث عنها، إلا أنها حضرت عقب ذلك وصعدت بالطابق الثالث واعتذرت عما فعلته واصطحبت ابنها وفاتن ويوسف بحجة تناول الطعام بشقتها.
وأضافت أن هاجر دخلت شقتها بالطابق الأول فى الثانية والنصف ظهراً بصحبة الأطفال الثلاثة وظلوا معها ساعتين، فحضر شقيقاها وجلسا معنا نصف ساعة ونزلنا جميعاً نطرق على الباب إلا أنها لم تفتح.. والدتى صرخت وقالت لتكون عملت فى نفسها حاجة كسرنا الباب ووجدناها واضعة خلفه كنبة «أنتريه» والشقة مظلمة وصوت التليفزيون مرتفع، فدخلنا غرفة النوم فاصطدمت قدمى بيد فاعتقدت أنها يد عروسة لعبة فقامت والدتى بفتح لمبة الغرفة فوجدت هاجر جالسة على السرير وتضع السكين على رقبة يوسف وبالبحث عن ابنتى اتضح لى أن اليد التى اصطدمت بها هى يد ابنتى وكانت بالنسبة لى صدمة بعد أن وجدت رأسها وقدميها مفصولة.
قالت والدة الطفل يوسف: «حسبى الله ونعم الوكيل، ضحت بهما فى العيد.. حرام عليها قتلت يامن كان هيكمل ٣ سنوات فى شهر مارس المقبل وفاتن كانت هتكمل خمسة» وأضافت أن ابنها أنقذته العناية الإلهية من موت محقق وأن المتهمة هاجر قتلت ابنها وظلت فاتن تتوسل إليها بعدم قتلها إلا أن قلبها أصبح كالحجر ونفذت جريمتها.
قال على سليم، أحد الجيران، شاهد عيان، إنه سمع صوت صرخات واستغاثة، وأنه عندما اقترب من منزل المجنى عليهما، شاهد المتهمة تخرج من المنزل وفى يدها الطفل يوسف، وفى يدها الثانية «سكين» وتظهر عليها آثار دماء، وأنه اقترب منها، وحاول تهدئتها، إلا أنها رفضت ترك يوسف.
وأضاف أن المتهمة كانت فى حالة انهيار، وكانت تردد بعض الكلمات، مثل: «ارتحت».
قال هانى محمود، شاهد عيان، إنه شاهد المتهمة أثناء خروجها من باب المنزل ويحاول الجيران إبعاد الطفل عن يدها، بعد أن شاهدوها تمسك سكيناً فى يدها الأخرى وعليها آثار دماء، وأن الأهالى تمكنوا من السيطرة عليها وأخذ الطفل منها، وقاموا بإدخالها فى أحد المنازل وأغلقوا عليها الباب، حتى لا يفتك بها الأهالى الذين شعروا بأن المجنى عليهما طفلاهم هم، وليس طفل المتهمة وابنة شقيقة زوجها، حتى جاءت الشرطة، وسيطرت على الموقف، ومنع الأهالى زوجها من الاقتراب منها، خوفاً من أن ينتقم منها، أو يحاول الاعتداء عليها، وكانت تردد: «هما اللى اضطرونى لكدة»..
ولكن لا أحد يعرف من الذى تتحدث عنه! فى بداية الأمر شعرنا أنها تتحدث عن أهل زوجها، ولكن بعدما اقتربنا منهم اكتشفنا أنه لا توجد خلافات أسرية تدفعها لقتل طفلها وابنة شقيقة زوجها، خاصة أنهما طفلان لا علاقة لهما بأى شىء.
Well, I am not going to translate all the above, I will tell you enough information so you understand this despicable story
In brief, that woman is a Muslim, she also read the Quran all the times, as well pray 5 times a day, when she married her husband, problems started between her and her sisters in laws, it seems that she was full of envy towards them, so she decided to get her revenge from her husband and his sisters
So she took all three children in her care then in two hours, she slaughtered her two years old son, chopped off his legs and arms, then killed the 4 years old daughter of one of her sisters in laws, also chopped off her head, arms and legs
You can imagine the screams of the innocent children at that time, so the neighbors rushed and broke in her house and at the nick of time they saved the last child whom she was about to slaughter
She told them now she is relieved, her husband and his sisters also refuted that she might be crazy, they used her devotion to Allah and her reading to the Quran as clear evidence that she cannot be mentally ill
The graphic descriptions above are really gruesome, so I am not going to tell you all
In the following day, the same newspaper posted the following about the same story:
المتهمة أمام النيابة: القتيلان ذهبا إلى الجنة والناجى الوحيد لم يدخلها
كتب فاطمة أبو شنب ٢٥/ ١١/ ٢٠٠٩
قرر قاضى المعارضات بمحكمة شمال القاهرة إيداع المتهمة بمستشفى الأمراض العقلية لمدة ١٥ يوم واعترفت المتهمة بتفاصيل الجريمة كاملة أمام محمد منصور، مدير نيابة حوادث شرق القاهرة، وقالت إنها تحب الأطفال، وأن الضحيتين اللتين قامت بذبحهما ذهبا إلى الجنة، ولكن يوسف الطفل الذى نجا حرم منها،
وأضافت أنها ارتكبت جريمتها للانتقام من عائلة زوجها لخلافاتهم المستمرة معها، وأنها يوم الحادث استدرجت الضحيتين والطفل يوسف إلى شقتها بالطابق الأرضى، وأحضرت سكينا من المطبخ وذبحت ابنها يامن، ثم الضحية فاتن، وقامت بتقطيع قدميها ويديها، وشرعت فى قتل الطفل يوسف إلا أنها فوجئت بدخول شقيقيها وأشقاء زوجها، فأسرعت بحمله والخروج به إلى الشارع للتخلص منه، إلا أنها لم تتمكن من قتله.
وأمرت النيابة العامة بإشراف المستشار محمد رمزى، المحامى العام الأول لنيابات شرق القاهرة، حبس المتهمة ٤ أيام على ذمة التحقيقات ووجه لها تهمة القتل العمد مع سبق الإصرار والشروع فى قتل الطفل يوسف.
قال زوجها عنتر، والد الضحية يامن، إن زوجته كانت تتشاجر معه بصفة مستمرة بسبب مساعدته لشقيقاته البنات، وأنها تتمتع بكامل قواها العقلية ولم يصدر عنها أى أفعال جنونية أو تفيد بمرضها نفسيا، وأنها ارتكبت جريمتها للانتقام من شقيقاته البنات، وأنه يوم الحادث كان فى عمله، وعلم بالخبر.
وقال شقيق المتهمة فى التحقيقات إنها ليس لها تاريخ مرضى وتتمتع بكامل قواها العقلية، ومنذ أسبوعين كانت تتحدث عن أشياء غريبة، وأنها تتخيل أشخاصا يتحدثون إليها عبر التليفزيون، وذلك للفت الأنظار إليها.
واستمعت النيابة إلى أقوال عبدالله الشاهد الثانى فى الواقعة، الذى قال إنه فوجئ فى الساعة الرابعة والنصف من مساء الأحد الماضى بصوت صراخ واستغاثة صادر من منزل المتهمة، وبخروجه من محله شاهدها تهرول فى الشارع وفى يديها سكينة تظهر عليها آثار دماء وتهدد بذبح الطفل يوسف، وأنه استطاع بمساعدة الجيران أن ينقذ الطفل من يديها، وفوجئ بها تقول: «هما اللى أجبرونى أعمل كده»!.
وأنه حاول تهدئتها لأخذ الطفل منها ففوجئ بشقيقتى زوجها تصرخان أنها ذبحت طفلين آخرين.
انتقل محمد منصور، مدير النيابة، إلى مكان الحادث لمعاينة جثتى الضحيتين، وتبين أن الضحيتين مصابان بجرح ذبحى فى الرقبة، وأن الطفلة فاتن تم تقطيع يديها وقدميها.
They are saying above that the killer stated that both children she killed are now in paradise, while the third whom they saved from her, is not going to be in paradise, obviously her mind is polluted by the crap hadith that those who die while being children, the hadith tell us that they should go straight to the heaven, which I am not opposing but also we cannot know if they will go straight to heaven or not, we cannot know it for sure, if Allah wants to throw the children who die straight into heaven, or throw them into hell, we know well that He always does what He wills, it is not our business whatsoever, We can only wish them to be granted the mercy of Allah and thrown into heaven
This is how the devil or the voices she was hearing from TV (as she alleged) were her associates, yet she also admitted that she killed them to get her revenge from her sisters in law
Here you have it, a perfect example to verse 6:137, which just happened a couple of days ago, a believing Muslim woman who was praying 5 times a day as well reading the Quran, listened to her associates after they decorated for her killing the children, thinking that by doing so she will send them straight to heaven and get her revenge from her husband and her sisters in law
You can imagine the anger of her sisters in law and her husband, they want her to be executed and ripped to pieces in a public place
She is nothing but another clear cut Mushrik bound to hell (who thinks to be a believer)
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
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Hey pussy cat
Time to slam dunk you and your ignorant pals
You say the Arabic word نصارى Nasara which means Christians should not mean so because it has the same root ن ص ر Na Sa Ra as another Arabic word انصار Ansar which means Supporters, therefore for a dumb ignorant bum like you and your pals, the Arabic word نصارى Nasara which means Christians should not mean so, rather it should mean Supporters.
Well dumb pussy bum, as I told you in my first comment, I have demolished such non sense on the freaks web site free-minds.org, and explained to you that the root method cannot be used to understand the meaning of the words. The moment a new word is derived from any root, is the same bloody moment that the word will be totally independent from such root
I know well that your deluded ego won?????????????????????¢??t allow you to concede, as the freaks of free-minds.org did before ya, so what I am going to do is to shut your stupid mouth up by using the same source of evidence you and them used.
See dumb pussy bum, you used the Quran only to extract two different words that happened to have the same root and you want both to mean the same.
Using your own stupid and ignorant method, I am going to show your arse four different words from the Quran all having the same root, yet each one means something totally different to the other and the meaning cannot be exchanged between them:
1- The first word: سُلَّمٌ , Sullum, i.e. Ladder, its root is س ل م Sa La Ma
Quran example:
أَمْ لَهُمْ سُلَّمٌ يَسْتَمِعُونَ فِيهِ ۖ فَلْيَأْتِ مُسْتَمِعُهُمْ بِسُلْطَانٍ مُبِينٍ (38) Or do they have a ladder upon which they listen? Then let their listener come with an obvious authority. [Al Quran ; 52:38]
2- The second word: الْمُسْلِمِينَ , Al Muslimeen , i.e. The followers of the religion of Islam (the submitters) , its root is س ل م Sa La Ma
Quran example:
وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ ۚ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ ۚ مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ ۚ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ (78) And strive to Allah with striving that is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not made upon you in the religion any blame; the faith of your father Ibrahim; he (Ibrahim) named you submitters before and in this, that the messenger may be a witness over you, and that you may be witnesses over the people; therefore stand up for prayer and pay Zakah (Alms) and be united by Allah; He is your Guardian; excellent is the Guardian and excellent is the Helper. [Al Quran ; 22:78]
3- The third word: السَّلاَمَ , Al Salam, i.e. Greeting of peace , its root is س ل م Sa La Ma
Quran example:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا ضَرَبْتُمْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَتَبَيَّنُواْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ لِمَنْ أَلْقَى إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلاَمَ لَسْتَ مُؤْمِنًا تَبْتَغُونَ عَرَضَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا فَعِندَ اللّهِ مَغَانِمُ كَثِيرَةٌ كَذَلِكَ كُنتُم مِّن قَبْلُ فَمَنَّ اللّهُ عَلَيْكُمْ فَتَبَيَّنُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرًا (94) O you who have believed! If you travel in the way of Allah, then investigate; and do not say to one who offers you greeting of peace, ?????????????????????¢??You are not a believer?????????????????????¢??, desiring the life of this world; while with Allah are many acquisitions. Like that, you were before; then Allah conferred His favours upon you, so investigate. Indeed, ever is Allah of what you do Acquainted. [Al Quran ; 4:94]
4- The fourth word: مُّسَلَّمَةٌ , Musalamah, i.e. Delievered, its root is س ل م Sa La Ma
Quran example:
وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ أَن يَقْتُلَ مُؤْمِنًا إِلاَّ خَطَئًا وَمَن قَتَلَ مُؤْمِنًا خَطَئًا فَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةٍ وَدِيَةٌ مُّسَلَّمَةٌ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ إِلاَّ أَن يَصَّدَّقُواْ فَإِن كَانَ مِن قَوْمٍ عَدُوٍّ لَّكُمْ وَهُوَ مْؤْمِنٌ فَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةٍ وَإِن كَانَ مِن قَوْمٍ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُمْ مِّيثَاقٌ فَدِيَةٌ مُّسَلَّمَةٌ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ وَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةً فَمَن لَّمْ يَجِدْ فَصِيَامُ شَهْرَيْنِ مُتَتَابِعَيْنِ تَوْبَةً مِّنَ اللّهِ وَكَانَ اللّهُ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا (92) And it is not for a believer to kill a believer except by mistake. And whoever kills a believer by mistake, then freeing of a believing slave, and compensation should be delivered to his family except that they remit it for charity. And if he was from a people enemy to you and he was a believer, then freeing of a believing slave. And if he was from a people who have with you a treaty, then compensation should be delivered to his family and freeing of a believing slave. And whoever cannot find (a slave), then fasting for two consecutive months, seeking acceptance of repentance from Allah. And indeed, ever is Allah Knowing, Wise. [Al Quran ; 4:92]
So what is the story, mister ignorant pussy cat?
Same source of evidence you used (the Quran), same language you used (Arabic) and same flawed method you used (the root method)
What seems to have gone wrong in your pinhead, dear pussy cat?
Well, possibly if I slam dunk you, you might wake up and learn properly from those who possess knowledge instead of learning from the dumb ignorant bums like you:
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
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Salam all
FFI kafir Ugly bin lyin asked the Muslims in there to provide a verse confirming what Muslim brother Eagle and myself stated which is, that the test in this life is to collect the evidences against the criminals, so they convict themselves, it is not a test for Allah to know what the humans will do, Allah knows the future in advance.
See bunch of confused FFI Kafirs, we need a crime to be committed before evidences can be collected and charges to be laid, after all that is done, the court time comes, and in court, those criminals will read the evidences against themselves then convict their own selves:
Here is the court scene set by the Quran:
وَعُرِضُوا عَلَىٰ رَبِّكَ صَفًّا لَقَدْ جِئْتُمُونَا كَمَا خَلَقْنَاكُمْ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ ۚ بَلْ زَعَمْتُمْ أَلَّنْ نَجْعَلَ لَكُمْ مَوْعِدًا (48) And they will be presented before your Lord in rows. (It will be said to them:) Certainly you have come to Us as We created you the first time. Rather you thought that We will not make for you an appointment. [Al Quran ; 18:48]
-> See: And they will be presented before your Lord in rows., the idiots like bun lyin never thought that they cannot miss the court appontment: Rather you thought that We will not make for you an appointment.
And here are the evidences against the criminals presented:
وَوُضِعَ الْكِتَابُ فَتَرَى الْمُجْرِمِينَ مُشْفِقِينَ مِمَّا فِيهِ وَيَقُولُونَ يَا وَيْلَتَنَا مَالِ هَٰذَا الْكِتَابِ لَا يُغَادِرُ صَغِيرَةً وَلَا كَبِيرَةً إِلَّا أَحْصَاهَا ۚ وَوَجَدُوا مَا عَمِلُوا حَاضِرًا ۗ وَلَا يَظْلِمُ رَبُّكَ أَحَدًا (49) And the book will be placed, then you will see the criminals fearing from what is in it, and they will say: Oh! Woe to us, why this book does not leave a small (deed) nor a great (deed) except that it recorded it; and they will find what they had done present; and your Lord does not deal unjustly with anyone. [Al Quran ; 18:49]
-> See: And the book (the evidences) will be placed, then you will see the criminals fearing from what is in it, and they will say: Oh! Woe to us, why this book (the evidences) does not leave a small (deed) nor a great (deed) except that it recorded it;, see how the evidences must be presented: and they will find what they had done present;
Consequently the criminals like bin lyin must convict themselves:
فَاعْتَرَفُوا بِذَنْبِهِمْ فَسُحْقًا لِأَصْحَابِ السَّعِيرِ (11) And they will admit their sins, and destroyed will be the companions of the blaze. [Al Quran ; 67:11]
-> See: And they will admit their sins
Here you have it: and destroyed will be the companions of the blaze. , and slam dunked is ugly bin lyin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
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Salam all
This is not a new slam, rather something that I talked about before, however I have rewritten it in a better way when I responded to one of my friends on Facebook:
Today we need to discuss very important subject, a subject that I believe most Muslims lack understanding, the subject is when Allah said: إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا , i.e. Indeed, Allah and His angels send blessing upon the prophet; O you who have believed! Seek blessings upon him, and ask (Allah) to grant him peace.
This issue is very complicated and confusing for most Muslims indeed, let me start by saying that the confusion is caused by the word صلى , Salla this word can be used literally (or I should say commonly) to mean to establish prayer, however the ritual Salat in the Quran is most of the times stated using two words اقام الصلاة , Aqam Al Salat, i.e. To establish the ritual physical prayer, therefore the word Salla alone does not necessarily mean to perform the ritual prayer.
The word Salla alone means to communicate or to be in touch or to be in contact, therefore any type of communication can be described using the word Salla, for example if you are calling upon Allah, this can be described that you تصلى , Tussali to Allah (communicating with Allah), however if you are establishing the ritual prayer then what you are doing should be described as تقيم الصلاة , Tuqim al Salat.
If I call upon Allah, however my call upon Him is to grant SOMEONE ELSE (not myself) mercy and forgiveness, then I اصلى على Ausalli Ala that person. i.e. I seek from Allah to respond to my salat on that person.
In effect, when I say اللهم صلى على ابويا or عسى الله ان يصلى على ابويا it should mean that I am asking Allah to respond to my call concerning my father, or to respond to the calls of my father to Him when my father was alive.
Now if الله صلى على ابويا , Allah Salla Ala Aboya, it should mean that Allah responded to my call by granting what I asked for my father.
Again, when Allah responds back by granting a wish being asked by anyone then it means that Allah صلى , Salla on that person, sort of, Allah blessed that person. But when the angels yusallo on a person, it means that they are communicating with Allah to seek mercy, forgiveness and guidance for that person, and if Allah grants mercy, forgiveness or guidance to that person, i.e. Allah replied to the angels communication, then Allah salla on that person, this is very important to understand before we look on the following 2 verses:
Indeed, Allah and His angels send blessing upon the prophet; O you who have believed! Seek blessings upon him, and ask (Allah) to grant him peace. [The Quran ; 33:56]
إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا (56)
-> The first important note in the above verse is this: we never read that الله سلم على محمد , Allah Sallam Ala Muhammed, i.e. Allah granted Muhammed peace or Allah greeted Muhammed with peace, which must put the common saying by most Muslims: صلى الله عليه و سلم , Salla Allah Alayhi Wa Sallam, in shame, because it cannot be an accurate saying, in fact it may fall under saying things about Allah that we do not know, because the greeting part in such saying by most Muslims WAS NEVER METIONED IN THE VERSE ABOVE.
-> Verse 33:56 can be divided in two parts, for the first part : إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ, Ina Allah Wa Malaakatihu Yussaloon Ala Al Nabi, Indeed, Allah and His angels send blessing upon the prophet;, we have the verb Yussalli that is performed by Allah and by the angels concerning the prophet, as you can see that it cannot mean the ritual salat because we don't read the word Yuqimu before salat, so the verb Yussali for Allah means that He sends His blessings to the prophet but for the angels it means they seek from Allah blessings, mercy, guidance and forgiveness for the prophet, for indeed, the angels cannot grant blessing to any one.
-> Now, the salat that Allah and the angels do concerning the prophet, is also done to all believers, and is also done by Allah and His angels. Let's look at the following verse before I discuss the second half of 33:56, amazingly the verse is in the same sura:
هُوَ الَّذِي يُصَلِّي عَلَيْكُمْ وَمَلَائِكَتُهُ لِيُخْرِجَكُمْ مِنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّورِ ۚ وَكَانَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَحِيمًا (43) He is the One Who responds to you, and (so do) His angels, that He may bring you out from darkness into the light; and ever is He, to the believers, Merciful. [Al Quran ; 33:43]
-> See : هُوَ الَّذِي يُصَلِّي عَلَيْكُمْ وَمَلَائِكَتُهُ, Hua Allazy Yusalli Alaikum Wa Malakaatuhu, i.e. He is the One Who responds to you, and (so do) His angels, , again it should mean that Allah sends His blessings, mercy, forgiveness and guidance to all of the believers, i.e. Allah Yusalli on the believers as He does with Mohammad, but for the angels, it should mean that they seek from Allah blessings, mercy, forgiveness and guidance for us The angels Yusallo on the believers as they do with Mohammad. Can you see how such purpose of Salat by Allah and the angels is stated in the verse: لِيُخْرِجَكُمْ مِنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّورِ ۚ وَكَانَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَحِيمًا , i.e. that He may bring you out from darkness into the light; and ever is He, to the believers, Merciful. , i.e. His salat on us or on the prophet means to send to us and to the prophet, His blessings, His mercy, His guidance and His forgiveness.
-> From 33:43 and 33:56, it is proven that all believers and the prophet are equal in regard to the communication by Allah and the angels, i.e. the prophet is not unique that Allah and the angels Yussalu on him because it is also done by Allah and the angels to all of us (the believers).
Let me continue with the second half of 33:56
-> يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا , Ya Ayuha Al lazin Amanu Sallo Alahihi Wa Salimu Taslima, i.e. O you who have believed! Seek blessings upon him, and ask (Allah) to grant him peace. , obviously the verse is covering two periods, when the prophet was alive and after he died, when we Nussali on Muhammad it means that we should seek the forgiveness, blessings and mercy to him, but that does not mean that we cannot do the same to the other prophets, in fact if Allah ordered us not to make any distinction between the prophets then we should Nussali on all of them, i.e. we seek Allah blessings, forgiveness and mercy for all of them equally, it is not conclusive that 33:56 means we should only do it to Mohammad, in fact Mohammad was referred to as Nabi, I.e. i.e. we can Nussali on any Nabi the exact same, remember that Allah and His angels do the same for all believers, therefore I believe the sunni and shia sect followers got it totally wrong by making it that in order to Nussali on Mohammad we need to recite the words Salla Allah Ala Mohammad while his name was never mentioned in the verse, it makes no sense other than stating A FACT using a past tense verb (فعل ماضى). Therefore to Nussali properly on anyone, we have to say it grammatically correct to sound like a wish or a duaa, I.e. the words اللهم , Allahum, or عسى الله Asa Allah which means a call to Allah to grant a wish, must precede the wish. EXACTLY AS WE SAY IT IN THE PHYSICAL SALAT WHEN RECITING TASHAHUD, in fact the past tense of the word Salla as recited in Tashahud is only stated about Ibrahim: اللهم صلى على محمد كما صليت على ابراهيم , i.e. O Allah, send you blessings, guidance, forgiveness and mercy to Muhammed as You did with Ibrahim.
And if we want to do the right thing then we should seek mercy, forgiveness guidance and blessings to all Anbiaa and even to anyone who is close to us. Muhammed cannot be exclusive in here otherwise it implies clear cut shirk.
Also, as we were commanded to Nussali ala Muhammed, Muhammed too was commanded the same, i.e. Muhammed was commanded to Yusalli on us, i.e. Muhammed was commanded to seek from Allah to send His mercy, His forgiveness, His blessings and His guidance to us. See this verse:
خُذْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ صَدَقَةً تُطَهِّرُهُمْ وَتُزَكِّيهِم بِهَا وَصَلِّ عَلَيْهِمْ إِنَّ صَلاَتَكَ سَكَنٌ لَّهُمْ وَاللّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ (103) Take from their money alms to purify them and increase them thereby, and seek forgiveness (of Allah) for them; indeed your prayer is a security for them; and Allah is all-Hearing, all-Knowing. [Al Quran ; 9:103]
-> See the clear command from Allah to Muhammed: وَصَلِّ عَلَيْهِمْ , and seek forgiveness (of Allah) for them; , i.e. Muhammed was commanded the same concerning us as we were commanded concerning him. Let me put the two commands of Allah under each other:
- 33:56, صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ , Sallu Alayhi, i.e. a command to the believers to seek blessings of Allah for him.
- 9:103, صَلِّ عَلَيْهِمْ , Salli Alayhum, i.e. a command to the prophet to seek blessings of Allah for the believers..
How clear, also Muhammed was commanded to not to Yussali on those who refused to fight the enemy with him and preferred to stay back at their homes:
وَلاَ تُصَلِّ عَلَى أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُم مَّاتَ أَبَدًا وَلاَ تَقُمْ عَلَىَ قَبْرِهِ إِنَّهُمْ كَفَرُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَمَاتُواْ وَهُمْ فَاسِقُونَ (84) And never seek blessings (of Allah) for any one of them who has died and do not stand at his grave; indeed they have disbelieved in Allah and His messenger and they died while they were transgressors. [Al Quran ; 9:84]
-> See how clear: وَلاَ تُصَلِّ عَلَى أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُم مَّاتَ أَبَدًا , i.e. And never seek blessings (of Allah) for any one of them who has died
The confused Mushriks from among the sectarian Muslims only take such salat on Muahmmed as a mean to boast about him and as a mean to show how exalted he is above all the rest including all other messengers and prophets. And to do so, they use the words of Allah in 33:56 despite that in 33:43 we read that Allah and His angels do the exact same to all sincere believers, and while they totally ignored verse 9:103 in which Muhammed was also commanded to do the same to us. THIS FOR ME IS ANOTHER EVIDENCE TO THEIR CLEAR CUT SHIRLK.
Let me now summarize the above so my argument is clear, in fact you may only read below to understand my argument:
1- When the name of Muhammed is ever mentioned in any sayings, most Muslims quickly say: صلى الله عليه و سلم , Salla Allah Alayhi Wa Sallam, their intention is clearly understood as PRAISE for Muhammed, i.e. they are using Allah to show how Muhammed is praised and raised over the rest of the prophets.
2- What they say is 100% wrong in many aspects:
a- The command of Allah in 33:56 is for us to SEEK the blessings of Allah to him, not to STATE a fact that Allah did (past tense) that to him.
b- The fact mentioned in 33:56 that Allah Yusalli Ala Muhammed is also stated in 33:43 but concerning us, i.e. Allah and His angels do the same exactly to us as Allah and His angels did with Muhammed.
c- The fact mentioned in 33:56 never stated that Allah Yussalim Ala Muhammed, but the confused Muslims still say Wa Sallam, after they say Allah salla ala Muhammed.
d- Muhammed too was commanded to Yusalli on the sincere believers and NOT Yussali on the insincere believers.
3- When humans Yussalu on another human, it means that they are seeking the blessings, mercy, forgiveness and guidance of Allah to such person.
4- When the angels Yussalu on any human, it means that they are seeking the blessings, mercy, forgiveness and guidance of Allah to such person.
5- When Allah Yussali on any human, it means that Allah granted His blessings, His mercy, His forgiveness and His guidance to such person.
One of my dear friends told me that the past tense can be used to express a wish. I told him that as such can be impossible because using the past tense is only to express a fact that HAS HAPPENED, while I do understand that TIME does not apply on Allah, i.e. Allah uses past tense to express future events, as for Allah all future events He told us about WILL HAPPEN for sure, then it can be considered PAST for Him, in other words FUTURE FACTS
But to seek the forgiveness/blessings/mercy/guidance of Allah to anyone cannot be expressed in such way, as in this case we are saying that it is a future fact. Rather we should express it in a way that does not imply so, see this verse:
فَأُوْلَئِكَ عَسَى اللّهُ أَن يَعْفُوَ عَنْهُمْ وَكَانَ اللّهُ عَفُوًّا غَفُورًا (99) As for those, perhaps Allah may pardon them. And ever is Allah Pardoning, Forgiving. [Al Quran ; 4:99]
-> See: عَسَى اللّهُ أَن يَعْفُوَ عَنْهُمْ , i.e. perhaps Allah may pardon them
فَقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ لاَ تُكَلَّفُ إِلاَّ نَفْسَكَ وَحَرِّضِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَسَى اللّهُ أَن يَكُفَّ بَأْسَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَاللّهُ أَشَدُّ بَأْسًا وَأَشَدُّ تَنكِيلاً (84) And fight in the way of Allah; you are not responsible except for yourself, and encourage the believers that perhaps Allah may restrain the power of those who have disbelieved. And Allah is stronger in power and stronger in punishment. [Al Quran ; 4:84]
-> See: عَسَى اللّهُ أَن يَكُفَّ بَأْسَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ , i.e. perhaps Allah may restrain the power of those who have disbelieved
وَآخَرُونَ اعْتَرَفُواْ بِذُنُوبِهِمْ خَلَطُواْ عَمَلاً صَالِحًا وَآخَرَ سَيِّئًا عَسَى اللّهُ أَن يَتُوبَ عَلَيْهِمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (102) And others have admitted their sins, they have mixed a good deed with another that is evil. Perhaps Allah may accept their repentance; indeed Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [Al Quran ; 9:102]
-> See: عَسَى اللّهُ أَن يَتُوبَ عَلَيْهِمْ , i.e. Perhaps Allah may accept their repentance
And many verses more
The biggest challenge that is facing most Muslims today is freeing themselves from all the brainwasings they went through for over 1200 years, exactly like all other religions?????????????????????¢?? followers.
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Thu 28 Jan, 2010 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Thu 21 Jan, 2010 1:19 am
parvez_mushtaq Pawn
Status: Age: 49 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 17, 2008
Posts: 36
Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam brother parvez and all
In my pre last comment I used the following Quran verse as an example of what the associates of the polytheists may be commanding them to do
And thus have their associates made it pleasing to most of the polytheists the killing of their children, that they may cause them to turn back and confuse for them their religion; and if Allah had willed, they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge. [The Quran ; 6:137]
وَكَذَلِكَ زَيَّنَ لِكَثِيرٍ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ قَتْلَ أَوْلاَدِهِمْ شُرَكَآؤُهُمْ لِيُرْدُوهُمْ وَلِيَلْبِسُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ دِينَهُمْ وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ مَا فَعَلُوهُ فَذَرْهُمْ وَمَا يَفْتَرُونَ (137)
Clearly, the associates command the polytheists to kill their children, they even decorated such evil act for them.
That is what I read today in an Egyptian newspaper. Almost every day I have to go through many of the online Egyptian newspapers, just to keep myself up to date to what is going on in such so called Muslim country
Yesterday I read a horrible crime out of the zillions horrible crimes that happens on a daily basis in that country.
The crime is indeed disgusting, in brief a woman killed her 2 years old son and 4 years daughter of one of her sisters in laws, she also tried to kill the 4 years old son of another sister in law, this is how it is posted in the newspaper:
جريمة ????????????????????????????«الهجانة????????????????????????????» استغرقت ساعتين.. والجيران أنقذوا الطفل ????????????????????????????«يوسف????????????????????????????».. والمتهمة تفننت فى ذبح الضحيتين
كتب فاروق الدسوقى وفاطمة أبوشنب ٢٥/ ١١/ ٢٠٠٩
ساعتان هى مدة الجريمة البشعة التى شهدتها منطقة عزبة الهجانة بمدينة نصر.. تفننت المتهمة فى تقطيع جثتى ابنها وابنة شقيقة زوجها إلى أشلاء.. وكانت تشرع فى قتل يوسف ????????????????????????????«٤سنوات????????????????????????????» ابن شقيقة زوجها الأخرى..
المتهمة توجهت إلى مسرح الجريمة قبل الحادث بساعات وهى تحمل سكيناً و????????????????????????????«سنته????????????????????????????» ونفذت جريمتها.. اصطحبت الضحيتين والطفل يوسف الذى نجا من الموت إلى شقتها بالطابق الأرضى وبدأت جريمتها بقتل طفلها ثم طفلة شقيقة زوجها.
قالت شقيقتا زوج المتهمة إنها تدعى الجنون للإفلات من العقوبة وقررتا أنها فعلت ذلك للانتقام بسبب غيرتها الشديدة من الأسرة وإنهم يتمنون إعدامها وتقطيعها فى ميدان عام.
التقت ????????????????????????????«المصرى اليوم????????????????????????????» بالطفل يوسف ????????????????????????????«٤ سنوات????????????????????????????» الذى نجا من الموت قال: ????????????????????????????«هاجر قتلت يامن وفاتن توسلت إليها بعدم قتلها وظلت تصرخ وتنادى على أمها إلا أنها قامت بطعنها بالسكين????????????????????????????».
والدة الضحية فاتن قالت: ????????????????????????????«قطعت ابنتى أشلاء حرام عليها ذنب الطفلين إيه.. المتهمة ابنة عمتى إلا أنها من يوم ما تزوجت وهى غيرانة مننا، منذ أسبوعين اتهمتنى أنا وأشقائى بأعمال السحر ومحاولة إيذائها فاتصلنا بشقيقها ومن أسبوع أثناء جلوسها معنا أمام التليفزيون فوجئنا بها تقول إن الأشخاص الموجودين فى التليفزيون يتحدثون معها وهى تكلمهم ورغم ذلك كانت تقرأ القرآن وتصلى الصلوات فى أوقاتها فلو هى ????????????????????????????«ملبوسة????????????????????????????» مثلما تقول لما كانت استطاعت قراءة القرآن????????????????????????????».
يوم الحادث خرجت من المنزل - الكلام لوالدة الضحية - فى وقت الظهيرة وبصحبتها طفلها ????????????????????????????«يامن????????????????????????????» عارياً تماماً من ملابسه، فاتصلت بشقيقيها للبحث عنها، إلا أنها حضرت عقب ذلك وصعدت بالطابق الثالث واعتذرت عما فعلته واصطحبت ابنها وفاتن ويوسف بحجة تناول الطعام بشقتها.
وأضافت أن هاجر دخلت شقتها بالطابق الأول فى الثانية والنصف ظهراً بصحبة الأطفال الثلاثة وظلوا معها ساعتين، فحضر شقيقاها وجلسا معنا نصف ساعة ونزلنا جميعاً نطرق على الباب إلا أنها لم تفتح.. والدتى صرخت وقالت لتكون عملت فى نفسها حاجة كسرنا الباب ووجدناها واضعة خلفه كنبة ????????????????????????????«أنتريه????????????????????????????» والشقة مظلمة وصوت التليفزيون مرتفع، فدخلنا غرفة النوم فاصطدمت قدمى بيد فاعتقدت أنها يد عروسة لعبة فقامت والدتى بفتح لمبة الغرفة فوجدت هاجر جالسة على السرير وتضع السكين على رقبة يوسف وبالبحث عن ابنتى اتضح لى أن اليد التى اصطدمت بها هى يد ابنتى وكانت بالنسبة لى صدمة بعد أن وجدت رأسها وقدميها مفصولة.
قالت والدة الطفل يوسف: ????????????????????????????«حسبى الله ونعم الوكيل، ضحت بهما فى العيد.. حرام عليها قتلت يامن كان هيكمل ٣ سنوات فى شهر مارس المقبل وفاتن كانت هتكمل خمسة????????????????????????????» وأضافت أن ابنها أنقذته العناية الإلهية من موت محقق وأن المتهمة هاجر قتلت ابنها وظلت فاتن تتوسل إليها بعدم قتلها إلا أن قلبها أصبح كالحجر ونفذت جريمتها.
قال على سليم، أحد الجيران، شاهد عيان، إنه سمع صوت صرخات واستغاثة، وأنه عندما اقترب من منزل المجنى عليهما، شاهد المتهمة تخرج من المنزل وفى يدها الطفل يوسف، وفى يدها الثانية ????????????????????????????«سكين????????????????????????????» وتظهر عليها آثار دماء، وأنه اقترب منها، وحاول تهدئتها، إلا أنها رفضت ترك يوسف.
وأضاف أن المتهمة كانت فى حالة انهيار، وكانت تردد بعض الكلمات، مثل: ????????????????????????????«ارتحت????????????????????????????».
قال هانى محمود، شاهد عيان، إنه شاهد المتهمة أثناء خروجها من باب المنزل ويحاول الجيران إبعاد الطفل عن يدها، بعد أن شاهدوها تمسك سكيناً فى يدها الأخرى وعليها آثار دماء، وأن الأهالى تمكنوا من السيطرة عليها وأخذ الطفل منها، وقاموا بإدخالها فى أحد المنازل وأغلقوا عليها الباب، حتى لا يفتك بها الأهالى الذين شعروا بأن المجنى عليهما طفلاهم هم، وليس طفل المتهمة وابنة شقيقة زوجها، حتى جاءت الشرطة، وسيطرت على الموقف، ومنع الأهالى زوجها من الاقتراب منها، خوفاً من أن ينتقم منها، أو يحاول الاعتداء عليها، وكانت تردد: ????????????????????????????«هما اللى اضطرونى لكدة????????????????????????????»..
ولكن لا أحد يعرف من الذى تتحدث عنه! فى بداية الأمر شعرنا أنها تتحدث عن أهل زوجها، ولكن بعدما اقتربنا منهم اكتشفنا أنه لا توجد خلافات أسرية تدفعها لقتل طفلها وابنة شقيقة زوجها، خاصة أنهما طفلان لا علاقة لهما بأى شىء.
Well, I am not going to translate all the above, I will tell you enough information so you understand this despicable story
In brief, that woman is a Muslim, she also read the Quran all the times, as well pray 5 times a day, when she married her husband, problems started between her and her sisters in laws, it seems that she was full of envy towards them, so she decided to get her revenge from her husband and his sisters
So she took all three children in her care then in two hours, she slaughtered her two years old son, chopped off his legs and arms, then killed the 4 years old daughter of one of her sisters in laws, also chopped off her head, arms and legs
You can imagine the screams of the innocent children at that time, so the neighbors rushed and broke in her house and at the nick of time they saved the last child whom she was about to slaughter
She told them now she is relieved, her husband and his sisters also refuted that she might be crazy, they used her devotion to Allah and her reading to the Quran as clear evidence that she cannot be mentally ill
The graphic descriptions above are really gruesome, so I am not going to tell you all
In the following day, the same newspaper posted the following about the same story:
المتهمة أمام النيابة: القتيلان ذهبا إلى الجنة والناجى الوحيد لم يدخلها
كتب فاطمة أبو شنب ٢٥/ ١١/ ٢٠٠٩
قرر قاضى المعارضات بمحكمة شمال القاهرة إيداع المتهمة بمستشفى الأمراض العقلية لمدة ١٥ يوم واعترفت المتهمة بتفاصيل الجريمة كاملة أمام محمد منصور، مدير نيابة حوادث شرق القاهرة، وقالت إنها تحب الأطفال، وأن الضحيتين اللتين قامت بذبحهما ذهبا إلى الجنة، ولكن يوسف الطفل الذى نجا حرم منها،
وأضافت أنها ارتكبت جريمتها للانتقام من عائلة زوجها لخلافاتهم المستمرة معها، وأنها يوم الحادث استدرجت الضحيتين والطفل يوسف إلى شقتها بالطابق الأرضى، وأحضرت سكينا من المطبخ وذبحت ابنها يامن، ثم الضحية فاتن، وقامت بتقطيع قدميها ويديها، وشرعت فى قتل الطفل يوسف إلا أنها فوجئت بدخول شقيقيها وأشقاء زوجها، فأسرعت بحمله والخروج به إلى الشارع للتخلص منه، إلا أنها لم تتمكن من قتله.
وأمرت النيابة العامة بإشراف المستشار محمد رمزى، المحامى العام الأول لنيابات شرق القاهرة، حبس المتهمة ٤ أيام على ذمة التحقيقات ووجه لها تهمة القتل العمد مع سبق الإصرار والشروع فى قتل الطفل يوسف.
قال زوجها عنتر، والد الضحية يامن، إن زوجته كانت تتشاجر معه بصفة مستمرة بسبب مساعدته لشقيقاته البنات، وأنها تتمتع بكامل قواها العقلية ولم يصدر عنها أى أفعال جنونية أو تفيد بمرضها نفسيا، وأنها ارتكبت جريمتها للانتقام من شقيقاته البنات، وأنه يوم الحادث كان فى عمله، وعلم بالخبر.
وقال شقيق المتهمة فى التحقيقات إنها ليس لها تاريخ مرضى وتتمتع بكامل قواها العقلية، ومنذ أسبوعين كانت تتحدث عن أشياء غريبة، وأنها تتخيل أشخاصا يتحدثون إليها عبر التليفزيون، وذلك للفت الأنظار إليها.
واستمعت النيابة إلى أقوال عبدالله الشاهد الثانى فى الواقعة، الذى قال إنه فوجئ فى الساعة الرابعة والنصف من مساء الأحد الماضى بصوت صراخ واستغاثة صادر من منزل المتهمة، وبخروجه من محله شاهدها تهرول فى الشارع وفى يديها سكينة تظهر عليها آثار دماء وتهدد بذبح الطفل يوسف، وأنه استطاع بمساعدة الجيران أن ينقذ الطفل من يديها، وفوجئ بها تقول: ????????????????????????????«هما اللى أجبرونى أعمل كده????????????????????????????»!.
وأنه حاول تهدئتها لأخذ الطفل منها ففوجئ بشقيقتى زوجها تصرخان أنها ذبحت طفلين آخرين.
انتقل محمد منصور، مدير النيابة، إلى مكان الحادث لمعاينة جثتى الضحيتين، وتبين أن الضحيتين مصابان بجرح ذبحى فى الرقبة، وأن الطفلة فاتن تم تقطيع يديها وقدميها.
They are saying above that the killer stated that both children she killed are now in paradise, while the third whom they saved from her, is not going to be in paradise, obviously her mind is polluted by the crap hadith that those who die while being children, the hadith tell us that they should go straight to the heaven, which I am not opposing but also we cannot know if they will go straight to heaven or not, we cannot know it for sure, if Allah wants to throw the children who die straight into heaven, or throw them into hell, we know well that He always does what He wills, it is not our business whatsoever, We can only wish them to be granted the mercy of Allah and thrown into heaven
This is how the devil or the voices she was hearing from TV (as she alleged) were her associates, yet she also admitted that she killed them to get her revenge from her sisters in law
Here you have it, a perfect example to verse 6:137, which just happened a couple of days ago, a believing Muslim woman who was praying 5 times a day as well reading the Quran, listened to her associates after they decorated for her killing the children, thinking that by doing so she will send them straight to heaven and get her revenge from her husband and her sisters in law
You can imagine the anger of her sisters in law and her husband, they want her to be executed and ripped to pieces in a public place
She is nothing but another clear cut Mushrik bound to hell (who thinks to be a believer)
I seek refuge in Allah
Salam
salams
dear ahmed
i apologies for my sudden disappearance
Insha ALLAH
i will replay your message in couple of days
regards
Mushtaq
Posted:
Wed 27 Jan, 2010 9:55 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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skynightblaze wrote:
Eagle says on page 9 that the arabic phrase in 2:284 should be translated only as Allah guides/punishes whom he wills and not Allah guides /punishes who wills to be guided or punished but yet shamelessly he changes his stance on page 11 saying that both renderings are equally correct.
Atleast maintain consistency in your lies .
What a shameless piece of ignorance you are, read this verse you stubborn dumb:
شَرَعَ لَكُمْ مِنَ الدِّينِ مَا وَصَّىٰ بِهِ نُوحًا وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ وَمَا وَصَّيْنَا بِهِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ ۖ أَنْ أَقِيمُوا الدِّينَ وَلَا تَتَفَرَّقُوا فِيهِ ۚ كَبُرَ عَلَى الْمُشْرِكِينَ مَا تَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَيْهِ ۚ اللَّهُ يَجْتَبِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ يُنِيبُ (13) He has ordained for you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa, to establish the religion and be not divided therein. Hard to the unbelievers is that to which you invite them; Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills, and guides to Himself whoever turns (to Him). [Al Quran ; 42:13]
-> See: يَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ يُنِيبُ, Yahdi Elaihi Mn Yunib, i.e. and (Allah) guides to Himself whoever turns (to Him)
Oh yeh, I should not forget to slam dunk the punk:
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:
Eagle says on page 9 that the arabic phrase in 2:284 should be translated only as Allah guides/punishes whom he wills and not Allah guides /punishes who wills to be guided or punished but yet shamelessly he changes his stance on page 11 saying that both renderings are equally correct.
Atleast maintain consistency in your lies .
What a shameless piece of ignorance you are, read this verse you stubborn dumb:
شَرَعَ لَكُمْ مِنَ الدِّينِ مَا وَصَّىٰ بِهِ نُوحًا وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ وَمَا وَصَّيْنَا بِهِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ ۖ أَنْ أَقِيمُوا الدِّينَ وَلَا تَتَفَرَّقُوا فِيهِ ۚ كَبُرَ عَلَى الْمُشْرِكِينَ مَا تَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَيْهِ ۚ اللَّهُ يَجْتَبِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ يُنِيبُ (13) He has ordained for you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa, to establish the religion and be not divided therein. Hard to the unbelievers is that to which you invite them; Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills, and guides to Himself whoever turns (to Him). [Al Quran ; 42:13]
-> See: يَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ يُنِيبُ, Yahdi Elaihi Mn Yunib, i.e. and (Allah) guides to Himself whoever turns (to Him)
Oh yeh, I should not forget to slam dunk the punk:
# 66
Salaams, Ahmed
Thanks for slam dunking both idiots. Where did they write that? At the FFI Cesspool?
Good job.
down such idiots, who do not know and write nonsense.
BMZ
Posted:
Tue 02 Feb, 2010 2:19 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Salam Manfred
Let me clear your ignorance which was motivated by the ignorance of inmate pisscohot. And I trust that you are far smarter than such idiot whose subsequent arguments are only motivated by his obvious hatred to Islam, unless of course you carry the same blind hate to Islam as such retard of an inmate has.
Let me bring both verses in here along with my own translation before any changes I will make to it, i.e. the same translation that inmate pisscohot referred to:
Here is the first verse that is talking about undisputable scientific fact that was is no way discovered 1400 years ago:
أَوْ كَظُلُمَاتٍ فِي بَحْرٍ لُجِّيٍّ يَغْشَاهُ مَوْجٌ مِنْ فَوْقِهِ مَوْجٌ مِنْ فَوْقِهِ سَحَابٌ ۚ ظُلُمَاتٌ بَعْضُهَا فَوْقَ بَعْضٍ إِذَا أَخْرَجَ يَدَهُ لَمْ يَكَدْ يَرَاهَا ۗ وَمَنْ لَمْ يَجْعَلِ اللَّهُ لَهُ نُورًا فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ نُورٍ (40 Or like darkness in a deep sea which is covered by waves above which are waves, above which are clouds, darkness, some of it are above others; when he holds out his hand, he is almost unable to see it; and to him whom Allah does not make light, then there is no light for him. [Al Quran ; 24:40]
And here is the verse talking about the Hour:
إِنَّ السَّاعَةَ آتِيَةٌ أَكَادُ أُخْفِيهَا لِتُجْزَىٰ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ بِمَا تَسْعَىٰ (15) Indeed, the hour is coming, I am almost hiding it, so that every soul is rewarded according to that for which it strives. [Al Quran ; 20:15]
The key words in verse 24:40 are: لَمْ يَكَدْ يَرَاهَا , Lam Yakid Yaraha, and was translated in my first draft as follow: he is almost unable to see it;
The key words in verse 20:15 are: أَكَادُ أُخْفِيهَا , Akadu Okhfiha, and was translated in my first draft as follow I am almost hiding it
Now for an ignorant of the tough Arabic language like you and inmate pisscohot, I need to break each Arabic sentence above to its elements (words), while explaining each element (word), as well explaining the similarities and un-similarities between the two sentences
For 24:40
لَمْ يَكَدْ يَرَاهَا , Lam Yakid Yaraha
لَمْ , Lam : Denial device to deny the present or the near past = Not
يَكَدْ , Yakid : A present tense verb = Almost in a verb sense. i.e. He is getting so close, the present verb form is when I talk about someone doing a verb.
يَرَاهَا , Yaraha : Is two words attached together, so let me break it to its elements (words) as well:
- يَرَا , Yara : A present tense verb = See, , the present verb form is when I talk about someone doing a verb.
- هَا , Ha : A damir (damir means a word to refer to something but not by using its real name) = It
Now if you compose the above, word for word, it should be as follow:
لَمْ يَكَدْ يَرَاهَا , Lam Yakid Yaraha = Not almost see it
Which should sound a bit silly under English, so if we make it = Not almost seeing it , by just adding ing to the verb see, it should sound more sensible. But I still need to explain it:
You can not deny two consecutive VERBS with one denial device. You must use a denial device for each verb if you want to deny both verbs. Now the Arabic verbYakid, i.e. getting close to, or in simple English term: Almost, must be used in conjunction with another verb, i.e. getting close to do something
Now, because we only have ONE denial device Lam and two verbs, then the denied verb out of the two MUST be the one which follows the denial device, i.e. what is denied by Lam in this sentence, is the verb getting close to, the second verb see CANNOT BE DENIED by Lam. i.e. the sentence means he does not get close to see it, i.e. He does not see it at all, in effect denying getting close to do something effectively but virtually denied the following verb.
Now if you want to deny the second verb See, then the sentence must be as follow:
يكاد لا يراها , Yakadu La Yaraha, i.e. He almost does not see it, and this is my mistake in my translation, in fact, I thank inmate pisscohot because indirectly he is helping me to fine tune my translation to make it IRREFUTABLE by any one even to the most minute words. You can see here that I have to use another denial device, this is to make it sound better under Arabic, however the Lam may be used, i.e. يكاد لَمْ يراها , Yakadu Lam Yaraha, i.e. He almost does not see it, which in effect means that he sees a bit of it, or sees a little of it, which is 100% the wrong translation to the actual words that appeared in 24:40
Therefore my translation will be changed for these 4 words: لَمْ يَكَدْ يَرَاهَا , Lam Yakid Yaraha to be any of the followings, I still to make up my mind after I consult with a few fluent Arabic speakers:
He does not get close to see it
Or:
He does not see it at all
Or, if I want to stay literal:
not almost seeing it
But as I discovered in the last 3 years or so working on my translation that I cannot stay at all times literal, otherwise I will end with many translated text that sound weird. I think I will go for He does not get close to see it
For 20:15
أَكَادُ أُخْفِيهَا , Akadu Okhfiha
أَكَادُ , Akadu : A present tense verb = Almost in a verb sense. i.e. I am getting so close, the present verb form is when I talk about myself doing something.
أُخْفِيهَا , Okhfiha : Is two words attached together, so let me break it to its elements (words) as well:
- أُخْفِي , Okhfi : A present tense verb = Hide, the present verb form is when I talk about myself doing something.
- هَا , Ha : A damir (damir means a word to refer to something but not by using its real name) = It
Now if you compose the above, word for word, it should be as follow:
أَكَادُ أُخْفِيهَا , Akadu Okhfiha = I am almost hiding it or I am getting close to hide it. In effect, it means it is not hidden totally, and as I said in my 2012 article in which I used this verse that the Hour is not totally hidden, and as the Quran told us that there will be signs for it that should make us realize that the hour is very near, yet we will never know its actual time until it starts to happen
Finally, the similarities and un-similarities between the two sentences are as follow:
1- Both 24:40 & 20:15 use the verb Kada, which means in simple English term Almost
2- Both 24:40 & 20:15 have a verb following the first verb Kada
3- 24:40 ONLY uses a denial device Lam to deny the verb Kada, and because almost is denied by Lam, it should totally deny the second verb See
And here you have it, this must be another slam dunk # 68 btw, not against you, but against inmate piss to shut his filthy mouth up. But as for you, you have two options:
1- To act like a confused ignorant by taking inmate pisscohot as a good example then insist on your ignorance.
2- To concede. And what you need to concede is simply, 24:40 is indeed talking about a scientific fact that was never known 1400 years ago to anyone in the world.
On the other hand, I am going to pass on your accusation that I stretch the Quran verses to make a scientific miracle in it, indeed you are certainly confused, as I am not a fan of those scientific miracles in the Quran, however, what 24:40 stated that you cannot see you hands at all in deep water cannot be overlooked nor not discussed neither not defended by me. In fact this is the only scientific fact in the Quran that I talk about strongly.
And here is the slam for inmate piss to enjoy in his cell:
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Quote:
40)Or like darkness in a deep sea which is covered by waves above which are waves, above which are clouds, darkness, some of it are above others; when he holds out his hand, he is almost unable to see it; and to him whom Allah does not make light, then there is no light for him.
[Al Quran ; 24:40]
Brendalee wrote:
Hello Ahmed: I do wonder why you bring your controversial (because they so often disagree with the translators and tafsirs)Arabic language arguments into a thread where no one speaks Arabic except you. But I will take issue with your explanation of the verse.
Well, if I am the only fluent in Arabic on this site, then you should learn from me, of course you can qualify what I said by looking for a kafir who speaks Arabic, this should be your chance to corner me if I make mistakes
Brendalee wrote:
Where does "like darkness in a deep sea" include any definition of "deep" except to define what sort of sea it is- eg a deep sea instead of a shallow sea? It does not define what depth the darkness is to be found at. Where does it say "several hundred feet" down? Where does it speak of the Abyss ?
Let's bring the verse here again, as well the verse before it:
وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَعْمَالُهُمْ كَسَرَابٍ بِقِيعَةٍ يَحْسَبُهُ الظَّمْآنُ مَاءً حَتَّىٰ إِذَا جَاءَهُ لَمْ يَجِدْهُ شَيْئًا وَوَجَدَ اللَّهَ عِنْدَهُ فَوَفَّاهُ حِسَابَهُ ۗ وَاللَّهُ سَرِيعُ الْحِسَابِ (39) And those who have disbelieved, their deeds are like mirage in lowland, which the thirsty one thinks to be water; until when he comes to it he finds it not to be a thing, and he finds Allah there, so He pays him his reckoning in full; and Allah is swift in the reckoning. [Al Quran ; 24:39]
-> See, it is talking about the deeds of the kafirs by telling us how such deeds will be nullified: And those who have disbelieved, their deeds are like mirage in lowland,, Then the verse is talking about how one of those kafirs will be dragged by such mirage into destruction, i.e. dragged by his/her deeds into destruction: which the thirsty one thinks to be water; until when he comes to it he finds it not to be a thing,, and here is the destruction waiting for him/her: and he finds Allah there, so He pays him his reckoning in full; and Allah is swift in the reckoning.
Now, the next verse 24:40 (the one in question), is continuing to give us another metaphor about one of those kafirs whose deeds will be nullified while at the same time is dragged thereby into destruction:
أَوْ كَظُلُمَاتٍ فِي بَحْرٍ لُجِّيٍّ يَغْشَاهُ مَوْجٌ مِنْ فَوْقِهِ مَوْجٌ مِنْ فَوْقِهِ سَحَابٌ ۚ ظُلُمَاتٌ بَعْضُهَا فَوْقَ بَعْضٍ إِذَا أَخْرَجَ يَدَهُ لَمْ يَكَدْ يَرَاهَا ۗ وَمَنْ لَمْ يَجْعَلِ اللَّهُ لَهُ نُورًا فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ نُورٍ (40 Or like darkness in a deep sea which is covered by waves above which are waves, above which are clouds, darkness, some of it are above others; when he holds out his hand, he is almost unable to see it; and to him whom Allah does not make light, then there is no light for him. [Al Quran ; 24:40]
-> Here is the key word to inform us that another metaphor is about to be said: Or, and here is what the metaphor is: like darkness in a deep sea which is covered by waves above which are waves,, i.e. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DARKNESS IN DEEP SEA, as well INTERNAL WAVES IN DEEP SEA, i.e. one of those kafirs whose deeds will be nullified is like dived into dark and deep water while above him there are waves, and above such waves there are more waves, so I do not get what is your problem exactly? But let me continue the metaphor, we started from deep water and going up, we met waves above him and we stull going up until we reach the surface waves, i.e. such kafir should be in deep trouble. The verse then is telling us what will be above the surface waves, which is the clouds: above which are clouds,, you feel like there is a heavy storm as well, in fact the next word confirms that: darkness, some of it are above others; i.e. DARKNESS OVER DARKNESS, it is like the verse is telling us indirectly that there is not even any light above the surface to penetrate the deep water, it is like the kafir has no hope at all for any light, this was confirmed with the next fact mentioned about such kafir who is in deep water to imply that he is indeed in deep trouble: when he holds out his hand, he is almost unable to see it; as translated in my first draft, however it is going to be like this now and in this way it is 100% more accurate: when he holds out his hand, he will not get close to see it;
Then the verse ended with the moral of the story: and to him whom Allah does not make light, then there is no light for him. can you see how it is all about the light and darkness, i.e. guidance and misguidance
Amazing metaphor indeed, and scientifically correct too. I love this verse.
Brendalee wrote:
The sea does not even necessarily need to be very deep to be impenatrable to the eye.
But the verse is taking about VERY DEEP SEA, the key word is BAHR LUJA i.e. VERY DEEP SEA, in fact I should add the word VERY to my translation because this is what LUJA means, VERY DEEP
Brendalee wrote:
There are some bodies of water, and some areas of oceans/seas which tend to be clear; there are others which tend to be dark. Being able to see several hundred feet down would be remarkably clear water - and not the least bit typical.
The light from the sun can only penterate the layers of the sea or ocean or river water to a certain level, after that point, nothing pass through, because the layers of water keeps reflecting part of the light penetrating it, this is known fact that was only discovered in the last 200 years or so
Brendalee wrote:
There are even lakes with impenatrably dark waters, where, whatever the depth you are, you cannot see your hand even inches in front of you.
Well, but there is no such thing in Mecca, keep wishful thinking, darling, it is not going to take you any where.
Brendalee wrote:
A body of water need not be deep; but consider a known deep water - Loch Ness: It's habitual condition is blackness itself. Even when conditions are perfect and it is at its most clear, it is still dark and black even at the surface. Maybe your vision might extend to feet instead of inches in perfect conditions.
Well, we are talking about the SEA in here, i.e. BAHR, now you tell me what is the level under water at which it will be total darkness, assuming that we have a bloody clear sky above it and the sun is shining at noon?
Brendalee wrote:
The clarity of seas/oceans depends on location and conditions. It is not the least bit unusual that items dropped into the water vanish into blackness after only a few FEET.
Again the verse is talking about the SEA while at the same time it is telling us that above it was dark already, DARKNESS OVER DARKNESS, but we are still talking about a guy IN VERY DEEP WATER, so let's just assume for argument sake as i did once already that it is clear sky and the sun is shining, you tell me how deep the depth would be for the light to not penetrate any further, I am telling you MUST BE VERY DEEP indeed, we are talking at least 1 km down, beyond which there will be no light? Or better read this and educate yourself a bit:
--------------
Visible radiation, or light, from the Sun is important to the world's ocean systems for several reasons. It provides the energy necessary for ocean currents and wind-driven waves. Conversion of some of that energy into heat helps form the thin layer of warm water near the ocean's surface that supports the majority of marine life. Most significantly, the transmission of light in sea water is essential to the productivity of the oceans.
Visible wavelengths of light are captured by chlorophyll-bearing marine plants, which then make their own food through the process of photosynthesis . The organic molecules created by this process are an important energy source for many small organisms that are the base of the entire marine food chain . All life in the oceans is ultimately dependent upon the light and the process of photosynthesis that it initiates. Similarly, light transmission is a key factor in the ecology of lakes and streams, which are discussed elsewhere in this encyclopedia.
Reflection, Refraction, and Color
The uppermost, sunlit layer of the ocean where 70 percent of the entire amount of photosynthesis in the world takes place is called the euphotic zone. It generally extends to a depth of 100 meters (330 feet). Below this is the disphotic zone, between 100 and 1,000 meters (330 and 3,300 feet) deep, which is dimly lit. Some animals are able to survive here, but no plants. Although the amount of light is measurable at this range of depths, there is not enough available for photosynthesis to take place. The layer of the ocean where no light at all penetrates?????????????????????¢??over 90 percent of the entire ocean area on Earth?????????????????????¢??is called the aphotic zone, where depths are more than 1,000 meters (3,300 feet).
Light Penetration.
A certain amount of incoming light is reflected away when it reaches the ocean surface, depending upon the state of the water itself. If it is calm and smooth, less light will be reflected.
If it is turbulent, with many waves, more light will be reflected. The light that penetrates the surface is refracted due to the fact that light travels faster in air than in water. Once it is within the water, light may be scattered or absorbed by solid particles. Most of the visible light spectrum is absorbed within 10 meters (33 feet) of the water's surface, and almost none penetrates below 150 meters (490 feet) of water depth, even when the water is very clear.
Greater abundances of solid particles in the water will decrease the depth of light penetration. Therefore, water near the seashore that is more turbid (cloudy) due to particles will show a decrease in light transmission, even in shallow water. This is due to large numbers of particles brought in by river systems, and biological production by microorganisms , as well as waves, tides, and other water movement picking up debris on the ocean floor.
Light Spectrum.
Water selectively scatters and absorbs certain wavelengths of visible light. The long wavelengths of the light spectrum?????????????????????¢??red, yellow, and orange?????????????????????¢??can penetrate to approximately 15, 30, and 50 meters (49, 98, and 164 feet), respectively, while the short wavelengths of the light spectrum?????????????????????¢??violet, blue and green?????????????????????¢??can penetrate further, to the lower limits of the euphotic zone. Blue penetrates the deepest, which is why deep, clear ocean water and some tropical water appear to be blue most of the time. Moreover, clearer waters have fewer particles to affect the transmission of light, and scattering by the water itself controls color. Water in shallow coastal areas tends to contain a greater amount of particles that scatter or absorb light wavelengths differently, which is why sea water close to shore may appear more green or brown in color.
24:40 is talking about VERY DEEP water where total darkness is found, i.e. at least 1 KM down, no human can do that darling, even the lady diver who tried to break the record, died when she tried to go a few hundred meters down, while at the same time she spent years training and preparing as well needed high tecj equipment to shoot her up like a rocket after she reaches the destined depth, and in fact she died because such water parachute failed to shoot her up quickly and she drowned
We are talking risky business in here mate, i.e. very deep sea, not the swimming pool at you backyard.
Brendalee wrote:
I can attest to this personally. A friend of mine once took me on a day-cruise in the Irish Sea. I was like a little child in my excitement as I was sure I would see dolphins. I was told not to hope for dolphins as we might very well see none at all, but to my great delight, we did. But to my disappointment, we did not see them very well. They were clearly to be seen ABOVE the water line, even in the choppy conditions, as fins and arched backs appeared, but the ones who swam up to check out the boat were obscure and blurred even just a couple of feet below the surface. They were visible only just there at that depth - if they dived down lower, they vanished and could not been seen at all because the water was too dark for visibility to be any good.
So there is nothing at all the least bit miraculous about Quran 24:40.
But we are not talking about you standing on your cruise looking down in water, we are bloody talking about a diver in deep water looking at his own bloody hands in front of his bloody eyes a few cm away from him
Please darling, stop spinning like lyin and others
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Pussy Cat of FFI said:
Is ar-Rahman merely an epithet for Allah, or are we dealing with two different gods blended together for monotheist convenience?
The Qur'an opens with the Bismillah: Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi. Translated:
YUSUFALI: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
PICKTHALL: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
The whole sura 55 (Chr.97th) is named after ar-Rahman which then becomes a different account of the creation than that of Allah!
Otherwise, his name is concentrated in some 'Meccan' suras: 50(17th); 44(19th); 45(20th); 73(21th);41(36th); 42(42th); 77(67th).
From what we know, ar-Rahman was the divinity of Musaylima, the contemporary powerful prophet of the Banu Hanifa tribe.
Rahman is not Arabic but Syriac, and the original is Rahmono, meaning ?????????????????????¢??the merciful?????????????????????¢??. D. B. MacDonald in the Encyclopaedia of
Islam wrote: ?????????????????????¢??It is almost certain that the prophet has borrowed the sentence ?????????????????????¢??Bism-el Rahman?????????????????????¢?? from Southern Arabia?????????????????????¢??????????????????????...
Kuran 43.45 (63th): ?????????????????????¢??Ask our prophets that we have sent before you: Have we created gods to worship apart from Rahman??????????????????????¢??????????????????????
This ayat is most troubling: Can Allah have the power to create an omnipotent divinity that is equal with him? Or is it an admission
that Allah created Himself? Then why would a supreme being creates another supreme being just as worthy as Him to worship? Isn't
it rather polytheism is disguise? If Allah created another divinity equaling Himself, yet separated, we're not into a one god faith!
If through ar-Rahman Allah created Himself, it logically means that He was a created creator from the first and this comes down
to a circular argument imploding the uncreated notion of Allah! Now, if Muslims maintain that Allah did not create Himself but an
emanation of Him out of the Universe set in motion then we are facing an uncreated entity, contrary to 43.45!
How can Muslims say that they worship 'one' god when the Koran states otherwise?[/quote]
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Ahmed says:
You stupid manipulator and piece of ignorant trash, 43:45 does not have the word CREATE, you conman:
وَاسْأَلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا أَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ (45) And ask those whom We sent before you of Our messengers: Did We make, other than the Compassionate, (other) gods to be worshipped? [Al Quran ; 43:45]
-> See conman, أَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ , i.e. Did We make, other than the Compassionate, (other) gods to be worshipped?
i.e. Allah did not ASSIGN anything to be worshipped other than Himself
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Tue 09 Feb, 2010 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Mon 08 Feb, 2010 7:53 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Muslim Traitor debunker of FFI said:
In case you missed it, I only used 86:3 as my SECOND example for Bahgat to convince him that stars collectively referred to all little shiny objects in the sky, including shooting stars.
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Ahmed Bahgat says:
Again you stupid and ignorant traitor, you may mislead with your crap the confused kafirs on FFI or some children for whom, stars, planets, meteors, comets, are all the same
Only dumbs like you who spew such crap, the Quran used different words for Meteor, Stars and Planets, therefore traitor, you have no fukin point other than exposing how filthy of a confused traitor of a Muslim you are
Any sane human knows well that a planet can not be a star, nor a meteor neither a comet. All are different objects you confused and the Quran mentioned 3 of those objects each with its unique name. But if you are dumb enough like many to interchange them, then fine if you want to look dumb and uneducated, the fact remains intact that the Quran used a unique Arabic word for each of these objects, Planets, Stars and Meteors:
See what google translate stated for each word of them:
Shuhub = Meteors
Thumbnail, click to enlarge.
Nigm = Star
Thumbnail, click to enlarge.
Kawkab = Planet
Thumbnail, click to enlarge.
And even if we translate Shooting star into Arabic, we get Naizak which is the Arabic and scientific name for Meteor:
Shooting star = Naizak = Meteor
Thumbnail, click to enlarge.
Now, if we translate Naizak into English, we should get Meteor:
Naizak = Meteorite
Thumbnail, click to enlarge.
Here you have it traitor, NOTHING IS INTERCHANGED, this shows how confused, dumb and stupid you are. It is like I replayed the tape when i got you red handed alleging that Banin means children
The bottom line is this, if you even know Arabic, then your level is street/public at max, but when it comes to professional and scientific level, you should know now what to do, dismiss your ignorant and trait-ting arse. sharmoot
I must add you to my slam dunk show, so I can use you as a perfect example of a filthy, retarded, confused and stupid Muslim for my students
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down such idiots, who do not know and write nonsense.
