Post subject: 5:51 Take not the Jews and Christians as Auliya
I wanted to ask a few questions about this particular verse:
Quote:
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
TAQIUDDIN HILALI AND MUHAMMAD MUHSIN KHAN: O you who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians as Auliya (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Auliya to each other. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong doers and unjust)
Now the two main questions I wanted to ask initially are:
1/ What is the literal/historical/underlying meaning of Auliya? I know it is not just a casual friend, but is it a close friend that you turn to for protection/support or can it be a body of people that you are close to or can it be a person or body of people that isn't your friend but does help out (eg. someone helping you fix your car or someone taking you to the hospital).
Someone also mentioned that the close companions of Mohammed were called Auliya too - is that correct?
2/ In the sentence:
Quote:
And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya, then surely he is one of them
does it specifically translate as Unbeliever or Zalimun - ie if a good Muslim took a Christian "whatever you define as Auliya in question 1" - then would that Muslim be considered Christian / unbeliever by this Quranic verse?
Thanks in advance
Rowland
Posted:
Sat 02 Dec, 2006 12:59 pm
The Rook
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Post subject:
Quote:
rowlandm wrote:
Now the two main questions I wanted to ask initially are:
1/ What is the literal/historical/underlying meaning of Auliya? I know it is not just a casual friend, but is it a close friend that you turn to for protection/support or can it be a body of people that you are close to or can it be a person or body of people that isn't your friend but does help out (eg. someone helping you fix your car or someone taking you to the hospital).
# far as i can say at the moment, "auliya" would be those who further a cause or purpose....i would agree in that those who help or succor u in doing something...or like those u turn to for assistance/counselling or aid in a matter...like who u ally with!(-:
Quote:
Someone also mentioned that the close companions of Mohammed were called Auliya too - is that correct?
## auliyas of whom?
Quote:
2/ In the sentence:
Quote: ‹ Select ›
And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya, then surely he is one of them
does it specifically translate as Unbeliever or Zalimun - ie if a good Muslim took a Christian "whatever you define as Auliya in question 1" - then would that Muslim be considered Christian / unbeliever by this Quranic verse?
# its not restricted to christians or jews...other verses make the same case for others too...anybody who disbelieves and ridicules god's message!
## i guess it would mean that by allying with them, u would be sharing and furthering/helping their cause...and thus be 1 of them! (-:
### that said, i personally feel these verses talk about those who have an agenda, and in the backdrop of the revelation! not so sure it would mean there's a restriction on helping them or being helped when it comes to fixing a car! (-:
Quote:
Thanks in advance
# anytime! (-:
Posted:
Sun 03 Dec, 2006 12:54 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject: Re: 5:51 Take not the Jews and Christians as Auliya
rowlandm wrote:
I wanted to ask a few questions about this particular verse:
Quote:
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
Quote:
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
Quote:
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Quote:
TAQIUDDIN HILALI AND MUHAMMAD MUHSIN KHAN: O you who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians as Auliya (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Auliya to each other. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong doers and unjust)
rowlandm wrote:
Now the two main questions I wanted to ask initially are:
rowlandm wrote:
1/ What is the literal/historical/underlying meaning of Auliya? I know it is not just a casual friend, but is it a close friend that you turn to for protection/support or can it be a body of people that you are close to or can it be a person or body of people that isn't your friend but does help out (eg. someone helping you fix your car or someone taking you to the hospital).
Hello mate, i believe brother The has put a very good reply, I will just try to add my 2c if I have anything else to say in addition to what brother The said
Actually Auliya may rarely mean friends, the context will be the ony judge to confirm its meaning, the generla meaning for it though is "Protector" , or "Guardian", within the Quran context tough, it has to be specific to the faith, i.e. Protecter in faith, guardian in faith
rowlandm wrote:
Someone also mentioned that the close companions of Mohammed were called Auliya too - is that correct?
Of couorse, because they are protector to the rest of the believers "in the faith)
rowlandm wrote:
2/ In the sentence:
Quote:
And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya, then surely he is one of them
rowlandm wrote:
does it specifically translate as Unbeliever or Zalimun - ie if a good Muslim took a Christian "whatever you define as Auliya in question 1" - then would that Muslim be considered Christian / unbeliever by this Quranic verse?
Thanks in advance
Rowland
I believe it means being LOST in guidance like them
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Post subject: Re: 5:51 Take not the Jews and Christians as Auliya
Let us look into this topic Logically. My father was certainly strict with few things, in my adolescent stage. Obviously he was concerned that I dont get deviated, or fall into some bad habits.
What I am intending here, Anyones parents they are concerned about there kids exceptions are there but in general. They would love to see us with the best of People, like I wouldnt like my younger sister to go out with some friends who completely are party animals and comes home late. Mingling wiht guys, this is my personal opinion.
Allaah is the Best Judge, Best Knowledge and when Allaah states that, it does mean a lot when we Humans restrict our near and dear ones to fall into bad habits, The question being raised is about Allaah.
Posted:
Sun 03 Dec, 2006 6:57 pm
rowlandm Pawn
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Thanks for the reply guys, sorry I've been so slack.
Now, to try and further narrow the definition of Auliya -
See verse 9:23
Quote:
O you who believe! Take not for Auliya' (supporters and helpers) your fathers and your brothers if they prefer disbelief to Belief. And whoever of you does so, then he is one of the Zalimun (wrong-doers, etc.).
How would this verse tie in with what you guys have said previously?
Posted:
Sun 17 Dec, 2006 12:24 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject:
rowlandm wrote:
Thanks for the reply guys, sorry I've been so slack.
Now, to try and further narrow the definition of Auliya -
See verse 9:23
Quote:
O you who believe! Take not for Auliya' (supporters and helpers) your fathers and your brothers if they prefer disbelief to Belief. And whoever of you does so, then he is one of the Zalimun (wrong-doers, etc.).
How would this verse tie in with what you guys have said previously?
Salam mate
it fits perfectly, because a believes should not take any disbeliever as a supporter on the religion account
how a disbeliever religiously support somthing that they don't believe in
on the other hand the verse above does not mean to cut all family ties, it only specific to the religion support and help and sure it makes great sense because the brother and the oarents don't believe in that religion
what proves what I said is simply, the Quran on another location was talking about unbelievers parents who encourage the child to disbelieve, Allah is ordering us not to obey them on that religious account YET we have to be kind to them and never say a word of contempt to them,
therefore 9:23 only means religion support, any other family support should stay
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At times they are stories we run away from our house to stay with our girlfriend coz parents do not accept our relationship. NOw a question being raised is about religion and done for the sake of Allaah and only for him.
Posted:
Sun 17 Dec, 2006 4:06 pm
rowlandm Pawn
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Could you give me an example of that Ahmed? Sorry Slave of Allah, I didn't really understand the example.
The Arabic word "Auliya" is not interchangeable with "friend" in all uses of the word. Note that it translates as "friends, protectors, supporters, helpers," i.e. it is referring to a certain type of friend - the type you count on for help, support, or protection.
So do you believe you are allowed to help someone spread Christianity as the true religion?
I'm just curious to know as for Muslims living in Australia, the GST (a tax payable on everything by consumers, not businesses) and their personal income tax (which is one of the highest in the OECD by the way) is helping to fund non-muslim and muslim schools.
What are your thoughts on the fact that Muslims working in Australia are indirectly helping predominantly Christian private schools spread the Christian message by working (and living) in Australia?
Also, what are your thoughts on what some people might consider hypocrisy that the two Islamic schools in Brisbane that I know of both have been provided grants by the government (a traditionally non-muslim supposedly secular organisation)?
Thanks for the quick responses - although you can slow down if you want - I'm only going to get slacker I reckon!!!!
Posted:
Sun 17 Dec, 2006 4:36 pm
rowlandm Pawn
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Also, that 9:23 verse makes more sense if you take the translation as a literal helper/supporter/protector.
Your interpretation allows non-beliveing non-christian non-jewish mothers, sisters, aunts, uncles and cousins to provide a muslim with "religious" help and support, which would be confusing in the least - why go to a non-beliveing non-christian non-jewish mother when having problems with a Quranic verse? They would have no idea!
It would make more sense to me then if you read it as a literal translation as per that nice man who provided the definition of Auliya (see previous post).
Posted:
Sun 17 Dec, 2006 6:00 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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The Arabic word "Auliya" is not interchangeable with "friend" in all uses of the word. Note that it translates as "friends, protectors, supporters, helpers," i.e. it is referring to a certain type of friend - the type you count on for help, support, or protection.
I will add to the above that it is only a religious friendship (Pray together, ponder upon and read the Quran together, discuss problems that relates to the religion followers together, etc..), or guardians, or helpers, I.e. it has to be related to the religion
Let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s look at 9:23 in more details:
O you who believe! do not take your fathers and your brothers for guardians if they love unbelief more than belief; and whoever of you takes them for a guardian, these it is that are the unjust. [The Quran ; 9:23]
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ آبَاءكُمْ وَإِخْوَانَكُمْ أَوْلِيَاء إَنِ اسْتَحَبُّواْ الْكُفْرَ عَلَى الإِيمَانِ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُم مِّنكُمْ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ (23)
-> Clear from the above that those parents whom we should not take as religious guardians are the unbelieving parents :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? O you who believe! do not take your fathers and your brothers for guardians if they love unbelief more than belief????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. the guardianship in here is only belief related not the day to day life guardianship between the family members
The abve is confirmed by looking at the following example from the Quran about when we should not obey the parents as belief guardians:
14: And We have enjoined man in respect of his parents-- his mother bears him with fainting upon fainting and his weaning takes two years-- saying: Be grateful to Me and to both your parents; to Me is the eventual coming.
15: And if they contend with you that you should associate with Me what you have no knowledge of, do not obey them, and keep company with them in this world kindly, and follow the way of him who turns to Me, then to Me is your return, then will I inform you of what you did-- [The Quran ; 31:14-15]
وَوَصَّيْنَا الْإِنسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ حَمَلَتْهُ أُمُّهُ وَهْنًا عَلَى وَهْنٍ وَفِصَالُهُ فِي عَامَيْنِ أَنِ اشْكُرْ لِي وَلِوَالِدَيْكَ إِلَيَّ الْمَصِيرُ (14)
وَإِن جَاهَدَاكَ عَلى أَن تُشْرِكَ بِي مَا لَيْسَ لَكَ بِهِ عِلْمٌ فَلَا تُطِعْهُمَا وَصَاحِبْهُمَا فِي الدُّنْيَا مَعْرُوفًا وَاتَّبِعْ سَبِيلَ مَنْ أَنَابَ إِلَيَّ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ (15)
-> Firstly we read the order to be always be good to the parents :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? And We have enjoined man in respect of his parents????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, then we have been reminded with one of things our mother did to us :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? his mother bears him with fainting upon fainting and his weaning takes two years????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, then we were ordered to than Allah along with parents :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Be grateful to Me and to both your parents????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, see how Allah put the parents alongside Him when it comes to thanks giving? ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? اشْكُرْ لِي وَلِوَالِدَيْكَ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Be grateful to Me and to both your parents????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
-> The above care and guardianship is covering the day to day life affairs that may include many sorts of friendship or guardianship but when it comes to a religiously related matter and the parents are unbelievers then we should not obey them or take them as belief guardians, advisers, friends etc.. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? And if they contend with you that you should associate with Me what you have no knowledge of, do not obey them????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, that is simply not taking them as Awlyaa, or guardians but only on religious matters, however we still been told to keep the guardianship regarding other matters : ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَصَاحِبْهُمَا فِي الدُّنْيَا مَعْرُوفًا????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and keep company with them in this world kindly????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, see the Arabic word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????َصَاحِبْهُمَا????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Sahibhuma????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, which is the common word for ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Make friendship????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. this is an order from Allah to be friends with humans who are not believers, therefore the guardianship or the friendship that the believers are warned to do is with those unbelievers but only on religious matters
rowlandm wrote:
So do you believe you are allowed to help someone spread Christianity as the true religion?
that is a strange question, it is also conflicting because Christianity is an earlier phase of Islam, I,e, to promote true Christianity it means promotuing the true islam, indeed I consider myself a true Christian, therefore to help them promoting the right religion we should help them understand the new phase of their religion which is islam exactly as Jesus was
rowlandm wrote:
I'm just curious to know as for Muslims living in Australia, the GST (a tax payable on everything by consumers, not businesses) and their personal income tax (which is one of the highest in the OECD by the way) is helping to fund non-muslim and muslim schools.
that has nothing to do with the word Awlyaa, it is the law of the land and we have to abide by the laws of any land
if the Australian government used the tax money to oppress islam, then yes we will have a big problem and we should leave the land
rowlandm wrote:
What are your thoughts on the fact that Muslims working in Australia are indirectly helping predominantly Christian private schools spread the Christian message by working (and living) in Australia?
That is fine as long as that money is not used to oppress Islam
rowlandm wrote:
Also, what are your thoughts on what some people might consider hypocrisy that the two Islamic schools in Brisbane that I know of both have been provided grants by the government (a traditionally non-muslim supposedly secular organisation)?
The grant here is acceptable because it is not religiously motivated, rather it is to help education and that is a policy that apply to all
rowlandm wrote:
Thanks for the quick responses - although you can slow down if you want - I'm only going to get slacker I reckon!!!!
No worries, however I still have a lot more to add regarding this subject so bear with me for sometime
But I wanted to highlight that a "christian" is defined as someone who believes that Jesus Christ is the son of god and that if you don't believed that Jesus Christ is the son of god you go to hell. That is why the Christian god will send all Muslims to hell.
Quote:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Also, are you inserting a "religious" interpretation into that phrase 5:51 as you mentioned below or is it actually a literal translation of 5:51? I never specifically asked this before sorry for going backwards. It's just that I read in the Quran somewhere that it was fully complete in every detail and if you added the "religious" in front of the support then it would mean that you weren't reading it with the idea it's in "perfect detail". ie if it meant religious auliya it would say so, otherwise it would be the common interpretation of the word auliya (although if the common interpretation of auliya in common arabic has particular 7th Century meanings)
Quote:
it fits perfectly, because a believes should not take any disbeliever as a supporter on the religion account
how a disbeliever religiously support somthing that they don't believe in
on the other hand the verse above does not mean to cut all family ties, it only specific to the religion support and help and sure it makes great sense because the brother and the oarents don't believe in that religion
Posted:
Mon 18 Dec, 2006 8:22 am
rowlandm Pawn
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Quote:
The grant here is acceptable because it is not religiously motivated, rather it is to help education and that is a policy that apply to all
I would disagree and say it is religously motivated (from the point of the school). The whole point of an Islamic school is to promote Islam. They have posters and prayer thingy on Friday - and the funds received allow them to build infrastructure to assist with educating children about Islam.
But I do accept and respect your opinion on this.....
Posted:
Mon 18 Dec, 2006 8:28 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject:
Quote:
The grant here is acceptable because it is not religiously motivated, rather it is to help education and that is a policy that apply to all
rowlandm wrote:
I would disagree and say it is religously motivated (from the point of the school).
Hello mate
I still have one big comment for you but will take some time to finish it, let me reply to this quick one
Firstly you donlt need a school to learn Islam, it can be done by the believeing parents as far as i;m concerned, that is if the child will be a believer from the first place, we can only guide our children to the religion but I insist that we don't need schools for learning islam
You only need schoold to learn math, physics and other stuff, indeed in my contry of origin which suppose to be Islamic "religion" is not a compusory subject
rowlandm wrote:
The whole point of an Islamic school is to promote Islam.
BS, it only to teach the already believers their religion, no promotion whatsoever
rowlandm wrote:
They have posters and prayer thingy on Friday -
that is in mosques not in schools
rowlandm wrote:
and the funds received allow them to build infrastructure to assist with educating children about Islam.
absolutely not, indeed most funds goes into other things and most children are ever raised to be true Muslims exactly as i have been raised
funds goes to build formal schools
but it seems you are a bit mixed up between a school and a mosque?
rowlandm wrote:
But I do accept and respect your opinion on this.....
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