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Fathom
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Post subject: Surah 4.159 Reply with quote  

This verse ranks as the single most confusing verse in the entire Quran. I have never seen a really good interpretation of this verse.

And indeed, there is among the people of the book who will surely believe in him before his death. And on the day of resurrection he will be against them a witness.
[Al Quran ; 4:159]

The translation above just doesn't make any sense. If there were People of the Book believing in what Jesus said, why then would Jesus be a witness against them?
Post Posted:
Fri 13 May, 2011 2:16 pm
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Fathom
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Post subject: Re: Surah 4.159 Reply with quote  

Fathom wrote:
This verse ranks as the single most confusing verse in the entire Quran. I have never seen a really good interpretation of this verse.

And indeed, there is among the people of the book who will surely believe in him before his death. And on the day of resurrection he will be against them a witness.
[Al Quran ; 4:159]

The translation above just doesn't make any sense. If there were People of the Book believing in what Jesus said, why then would Jesus be a witness against them?


It's not just your translation Ahmed, it's every one's translation that also fails to interpret this very confusing verse.
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Fri 13 May, 2011 2:18 pm
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AhmedBahgat
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Salam fathom

I agree the verse is confusing, but that does not cause any contradition in Quran because 3:7 which states that Allah included some confusing verses that no one knows it meaning but Him



هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ (7)

It is He Who has sent down the book to you; in it are decisive signs which are the mother of the book, and others which are allegorical. As for those in whose hearts is disease, they follow what is allegorical from it, seeking discord and seeking its interpretation. And none knows its interpretation except Allah. And those firm in knowledge say: We have believed in it, all from our Lord. And none remembers except those who possess minds.
[Al Quran ; 3:7]



3:7 also states why Allah planned so

Finally, I know that some Muslims use this verse to prove the second coming of Jesus, but I have not bought that yet

Cheers

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Fri 13 May, 2011 5:54 pm
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No offense to you, or any Muslim who reads this, but as a secular atheist I'd like to point out a few things regarding my observations over the past 20 years of a few verses in the Quran. Keep in mind that I base my position upon what I see in regards to the perversion of Islam by those who claim to be scholars, but who in reality couldn't understand how to get themselves out of a wet paper bag if their lives depended on it.

Firstly, in the following verse Allah is speaking about an incident that occured in the past concerning Jesus. The following verse has Allah talking about something he said to Jesus back in AD 32:

3.55

"Behold! Allah said: "Oh Jesus! I will cause you to die and then raise you to Myself and clear you of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow you superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection. Then shall you all return to me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein you dispute."

The verse above demonstrates conclusively that Allah said to Jesus that Jesus was going to die. So when was Jesus going to die? The following verse conclusively demonstrates precisely when Jesus was going to die:

5.117

"I (Jesus) never said anything to them except what you commanded me to say, which was, "Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them when I lived among them. And when You caused me to die, it was You who then watched over them, and You are a witness to all things."

Why is this verse so important? It demonstrates that Allah is speaking to Jesus at some future event, however, what it so clearly demonstrates is that Allah caused Jesus to die during his time on earth. How do we know? We know because the part that says, "And when You caused me to die, it was You who then watched over them," shows us that after Allah caused Jesus to die, Allah then was watching over Jesus' disciples who were still alive at that time. After Allah caused Jesus to die in AD 32, Allah then watched over Jesus' disciples in AD 32 until they also died some years later.

If this were not the truth, are we expected to believe that the disciples of Jesus are still walking the earth today and still being watched over by Allah 2000 years later? No, of course not. It's clear that Allah was watching over Jesus' disciples after Jesus died in AD 32.

This is clear-cut and obvious evidence that Allah caused Jesus to actually die during the time that Jesus was with his disciples in Israel around the year 32 AD. These verses jibe perfectly with the Gospel accounts of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Now let's see if we can actually make the following verses make any sense through some proper interpretation.

The following verses have Allah recounting some of the history of the Jews. Despite the fact that these verses also speak about Jesus, it is important to remember that the point of these verses is for Allah to recount the transgressions of the Jews and to rebuke their statements concerning Jesus.

To make this interpretation perfectly clear, I have placed in parenthesis the words (the Jews) in various places so that the interpretation stays focused.


4.153 - 4.159

"The people of the Book (the Jews) ask you to cause a book to descend to them from heaven. Indeed they (the Jews) asked Moses for even greater when they (the Jews) said, "Show us Allah in public." But they (the Jews) were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they (the Jews) worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them. Even so we forgave them, and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority.

And for their covenant, we raised it over them on the mountain. And we said, "Enter the gate with humility," and we commanded them, "Transgress not in the matter of the sabbath." And we took from them a solemn covenant.

In that they
(the Jews) broke their covenant, and that they (the Jews) rejected the signs of Allah; that they (the Jews) slew the Messengers in defiance of righteousness, and that they (the Jews) said, "Our hearts are the wrappings." No! Rather, Allah has set a seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it that they believe!

That they
(the Jews) rejected faith in that they (the Jews) uttered against Mary a grave false charge, and that they (the Jews) claimed "We (the Jews) killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah!" But they (the Jews) did not kill nor crucify him, but rather it only appeared as so to them. And those who argue about it are full of doubts with no knowledge, but only have conjecture to follow, for it is a certainty that they (the Jews) did not kill him.

Rather, Allah resurrected him up to Himself, for Allah is Exalted in Power and Wise.

And there are none of the People of the Book who believed in him before he died, and therefore on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them."


When we look at the above interpretation of those verses, many things become very very clear. We have already established beyond a reasonable doubt that Allah did indeed cause Jesus to die in AD 32. Yet, most Muslims- due to traditional teaching and anti-Christian propaganda- believe that the verses above are saying "Jesus was not killed nor crucified." Yet, these verses do not say that "Jesus was not killed nor crucified," but rather they rebuke the claim of the Jews of "We (the Jews) killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah!"

As every Muslim knows, it is Allah who gives life and it is Allah who causes people to die. The verses above have Allah correcting the claim of the Jews that is was THEM who caused the death of Jesus, when in fact it was Allah who caused the death and crucifixion of Jesus. Indeed, it also demonstrates that Allah resurrected Jesus from death and took him up to Allah, which again completely agrees with the current Gospel accounts. But the most important thing to understand is what the verses do not say, and they do not say that "Jesus was not killed or crucified." It only says that "The Jews did not kill nor crucify Jesus."

With that interpretation presented, it's a very small jump to understanding the interpretation of 4.159. My interpretation of 4.159 makes perfect sense if we throw out all the traditional teaching and anti-Christian propaganda. 4.159 says, "And there are none of the People of the Book who believed in him before he died, and therefore on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them."

Verse 4.159 is telling us that none of the Jews believed in Jesus before he died, and therefore on the day of the resurrection Jesus is going to be a witness against those Jews. Those Jews rejected the message of Allah as spoken by Jesus, and therefore they will be judged on the Last Day. Once again, this is in 100% agreement with current Gospel accounts.

Of ALL the Islamic interpretations I have ever seen regarding 4.159, NONE have made the slightest bit of sense logically or intellectually, except mine. Why? Because I don't have any traditional teaching or any anti-Christian proganda to blind me from seeing clearly what needs to be seen.

The biggest problem with Islam today is how anti-Christian it has become. The hatred of Christians and Christianity that Muslims are being taught is not found in the Quran. Instead, it is found in the hearts of those who prefer to distort the meaning of the Quran to support their hatred of other faiths.

The reality is, the Quran is in perfect harmony with the Gospel of Jesus Christ currently found in the Christian Bible. Only the blind cannot see it.

In my opinion, it will require an extraordinarily gifted and brave Muslim to actually teach what the Quran actually says, because it has been made abundantly clear in modern times that the Islam has been hijacked by fundamentalists and terrorists, and the only thing that will save Islam is the truth.

It's time for the truth. End the hatred. It must start with you.
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Sun 15 May, 2011 5:51 am
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Hello fathom

Is this for me to answer?

If so, I dont need to, because I agree totally that Jesus died before he was raised. I think I had a bout with you about this before and you should know my stand that I believe that Jesus died before being raised, i.e. he was raised dead body

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Sun 15 May, 2011 7:53 am
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Fathom wrote:
4:159
And there are none of the People of the Book who believed in him before he died, and therefore on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them."


Hello again Fathom

Your translation is 100% wrong, let me bring mine:



وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا (159)

And indeed, there is among the people of the book who will surely believe in him before his death. And on the day of resurrection he will be against them a witness.
[Al Quran ; 4:159]



The above is the most acccurate translation according to the verse Arabic words

From where you got your translation?

Cheers

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Sun 15 May, 2011 7:59 am
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
4:159
And there are none of the People of the Book who believed in him before he died, and therefore on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them."


Hello again Fathom

Your translation is 100% wrong, let me bring mine:



وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا (159)

And indeed, there is among the people of the book who will surely believe in him before his death. And on the day of resurrection he will be against them a witness.
[Al Quran ; 4:159]



The above is the most acccurate translation according to the verse Arabic words

From where you got your translation?

Cheers


I'm not talking about a "translation," but an "interpretation."

Yours is roughly the same as everyone else who tried to translate it. The reason yours does not make any sense is .. are we to believe that Jesus will die again? Since you already believe he died and was resurrected, then how can the people of the book believe in him before his death if he has already died? Your translation speaks in the "present tense" when it says, " there is among the people of the book ..."

In proper English, your translation says, "There are among the People of the Book many who will believe in Jesus before Jesus dies, and on the Day of Judgement Jesus will be a witness against them." That's precisely what your translation says in English.

It simply doesn't make any sense at all. Since you already believe Jesus died, are we to think that he will come back and die again? Also, why would Jesus be a witness against the People of the Book who believed in him? Did Jesus lie to them?

Do you understand what is wrong with that translation? It simply doesn't work logically or linguistically.

My "interpretation" comes from careful analyzing of dozens of translations, as well as careful consideration of the context of the surrounding verses and how they relate.
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Sun 15 May, 2011 9:02 am
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Read this Fathom

Did Jesus die on earth before he was raised to the heaven?


Hello All

I was surprised to find many Muslims believe that Jesus was raised alive "i.e. he never died", and because Allah knew that this confusion will happen, Allah answered it in the Quran, let's have look at the verse where Allah said to Jesus that He will cause him to die "natural death" then He will raise the dead Jesus to the heaven:

YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.

SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

RASHAD KHALIFA: Thus, GOD said, O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.

{The Quran ; 3:55}

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (55)

-> It is obvious to me that Rashad Khalifa translation to that specific verse is the most accurate one, btw I disagree with most of his other stuff

-> What amazes me is this, the Arabic verse is clear, Allah said to Jesus "Ini Motawafika Wa Rafe'ak"

-> For Jesus to die on earth was a must for Allah because this is what He said in the Quran, and we know that Allah does not change His words:

"Every soul shall have a taste of death in the end to Us shall ye be brought back."

{The Quran ; 29:57}

كُلُّ نَفْسٍ ذَائِقَةُ الْمَوْتِ ثُمَّ إِلَيْنَا تُرْجَعُونَ (57)


In fact the same message that every soul must taste death was repeated in another 2 locations, {3:185}, and {21:35}, so why it is strange to accept what Allah clearly stated in 3:55 regarding putting Jesus to death?

The important fact is this, I really care less about this concept of Jesus have not died yet then his return, all I care about that the Judgment Day is coming, while to a degree I may believe in Jesus return, but this has no effect in how I believe in Allah, His prophets, His angels, His books and His Judgment Day. What bothers me though is this, many Muslims think he must return so he dies because he did not die yet.

The key word in hand is Motawafika and it seems they understand it as shown in some English translations as takes you back to Himself, again a total mistranslation to a CLEAR ARABIC WORD within its context that means Death, WAFFAH, while I agree it also means To take back, but the context of the verses clearly confirms it means its common meaning which is Death

The Quran use of that Arabic word in all other locations meant death, why in 3:55 they take it as the other very rare meaning?

Lets look at a few examples from the Clear Arabic Quran:

It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.

[The Quran ; 39:42]

اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَى عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَى إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُسَمًّى إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (42)

-> The verse is crystal clear , the same word used Yatawafa to describe both death and sleep, both share a simple fact as described in the verse that Allah removes the SOUL from our bodies when we sleep and when we die, for those who must die the souls will not come back and for the others who still have to live, their souls will return to their bodies. The argument that Jesus didnlt die by those Muslims can be demolished here even by using the meaning they prefer which is To take back, i.e. Allah will take back Jesuss soul, and consequently because the soul came out of the body, the body must go into a death or a sleep mode.

-> We certainly know that sleeping feels exactly like death , I can expand on this by using the Quran. So for some Muslims to come and tell us that Motawafika does not mean put to death, they have to be wrong, at least it will mean that Jesus soul was forced out of his body and he went into a coma or sort of a sleep the least

If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-

{The Quran ; 8:50}

وَلَوْ تَرَى إِذْ يَتَوَفَّى الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ وَذُوقُواْ عَذَابَ الْحَرِيقِ (50)

-> The word was used above and it meant death.


Say: "O ye men! If ye are in doubt as to my religion, (behold!) I worship not what ye worship, other than Allah! But I worship Allah - Who will take your souls (at death): I am commanded to be (in the ranks) of the Believers,

{The Quran ; 10:104}

قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِن كُنتُمْ فِي شَكٍّ مِّن دِينِي فَلاَ أَعْبُدُ الَّذِينَ تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ وَلَكِنْ أَعْبُدُ اللّهَ الَّذِي يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ وَأُمِرْتُ أَنْ أَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (104)

-> Again


It is Allah who creates you and takes your souls at death; and of you there are some who are sent back to a feeble age, so that they know nothing after having known (much): for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Powerful.

{The Quran ; 16:70}

وَاللّهُ خَلَقَكُمْ ثُمَّ يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ وَمِنكُم مَّن يُرَدُّ إِلَى أَرْذَلِ الْعُمُرِ لِكَيْ لاَ يَعْلَمَ بَعْدَ عِلْمٍ شَيْئًا إِنَّ اللّهَ عَلِيمٌ قَدِيرٌ (70)

-> And again


O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).

{The Quran ; 22:5}

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِن كُنتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِّنَ الْبَعْثِ فَإِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ ثُمَّ مِنْ عَلَقَةٍ ثُمَّ مِن مُّضْغَةٍ مُّخَلَّقَةٍ وَغَيْرِ مُخَلَّقَةٍ لِّنُبَيِّنَ لَكُمْ وَنُقِرُّ فِي الْأَرْحَامِ مَا نَشَاء إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى ثُمَّ نُخْرِجُكُمْ طِفْلًا ثُمَّ لِتَبْلُغُوا أَشُدَّكُمْ وَمِنكُم مَّن يُتَوَفَّى وَمِنكُم مَّن يُرَدُّ إِلَى أَرْذَلِ الْعُمُرِ لِكَيْلَا يَعْلَمَ مِن بَعْدِ عِلْمٍ شَيْئًا وَتَرَى الْأَرْضَ هَامِدَةً فَإِذَا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْهَا الْمَاء اهْتَزَّتْ وَرَبَتْ وَأَنبَتَتْ مِن كُلِّ زَوْجٍ بَهِيجٍ (5)

-> What can I say?, well, and again.


Say: The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord."

{The Quran ; 32:11}

قُلْ يَتَوَفَّاكُم مَّلَكُ الْمَوْتِ الَّذِي وُكِّلَ بِكُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَى رَبِّكُمْ تُرْجَعُونَ (11)

-> Another proof that it means Death.


It is He Who has created you from dust then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot; then does he get you out (into the light) as a child: then lets you (grow and) reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before;- and lets you reach a Term appointed; in order that ye may learn wisdom.

{The Quran ; 40:67}

هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَكُم مِّن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ ثُمَّ مِنْ عَلَقَةٍ ثُمَّ يُخْرِجُكُمْ طِفْلًا ثُمَّ لِتَبْلُغُوا أَشُدَّكُمْ ثُمَّ لِتَكُونُوا شُيُوخًا وَمِنكُم مَّن يُتَوَفَّى مِن قَبْلُ وَلِتَبْلُغُوا أَجَلًا مُّسَمًّى وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ (67)

-> More proofs

From what I presented above, it is clear the that the word يُتَوَفَّى YOTAWAFA, can also be read as the word يَتَوَفَّى YATAWAFA means put to death , it is also clear that sleeping is a type of death created by Allah, so if Allah said to Jesus that He Motawafika in 3:55, then it simply means the Jesus soul was forced out of his body, before his body was raised to the heaven by the angels or by any other mean.

The Sunni/Shia believe hard that Jesus return is confirmed by at least two verses in the Quran which we will look at later, for them this add further proofs that he didnt die. But as I stated above, I agree that Jesus may return with the will of Allah, but his return does not mean that he was not put to death by Allah contrary to what Allah stated in His Quran Motawafika, I cant see any problem for our God to raise Jesus again from the dead and send him back to earth to fulfil Allah words if required, in fact one of the sincere brothers Usama Abdullah answering Christianity logic falls to the ground really hard, his logic that the Quran said in 11:40 that all humans must die twice and live twice:

They shall say: Our Lord! twice didst Thou make us subject to death, and twice hast Thou given us life, so we do confess our faults; is there then a way to get out?

{The Quran ; 40:11}

قَالُوا رَبَّنَا أَمَتَّنَا اثْنَتَيْنِ وَأَحْيَيْتَنَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَاعْتَرَفْنَا بِذُنُوبِنَا فَهَلْ إِلَى خُرُوجٍ مِّن سَبِيلٍ (11)

-> With my respect to this man, I cant accept his flawed logic that the above verse stated all humans will die twice and live twice, so he understood it as Jesus did not die otherwise he will be forced to die 3 times, but again which he thinks will conflict with 11:40, but hold on a second, Jesus is a prophet, he is not like us, in fact he was only working for us, so he is dealt with differently by Allah, the Quran told us that prophet Uzair already died 3 times, he was dead, then Allah brought him to life, then Allah put him to death for 100 years then Allah brought him to life again, then Allah put to death again and we know that Allah will bring him to life again on the judgment day, therefore brother Usama logic can not be accepted.

Now , let me comment on the two verses they use as a confirmation of Jesus return:

"And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them."

{The Quran ; 4:159}

وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا (159)

-> The above translation to 4:159 provided by the Sunni is 100% wrong, they think that the verse means before Jesus dies all the Christians and the Jews must believe in him, I say hold on a minute on that second argument of his return, lets finish the first one first (hid death), the Arabic verse does not mean that Jesus was not put to death by Allah, simply Allah can raise Jesus again from the dead any time He wants for whatever number of times He wants, even if the above verse means that all the Christians and Jews will believe in him at one point in time, the verse still has nothing to do with him being put to death or not.

-> The important point that they blindly ignore this, why not this verse applies at the time when Jesus was put to death by Allah according to 3:55 as I explained earlier?, i.e. there was SOME people of the Book who believed in Jesus, i.e. the verse might be talking about the time in the past just before Jesus was put to death naturally by Allah then raised, in fact the Arabic words may mean that NOT ALL OF THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK WILL BELIEVE IN JESUS, ONLY SOME as the Arabic words suggest: وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ i.e. Some of the people of the Book NOT ALL, it is strange to translate it as ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK, see, if مِّنْMin was not there, then yes it will mean all the people of the book, but because Min is there then it means some of them and not all.

-> Now if we consider that the verse is talking about Jesus return, then I see no problem with that, Allah will raise Jesus from the dead again, send him to earth to do an important task, then put Jesus to death again, what is wrong with that?, Allah does what He wants when He wants with no restrictions

Well, Allah told us in the Quran that He put prophet Uzair to death for 100 years and He raised him to life again as I explained earlier, same with Abraham, Allah told us that He showed Abraham how He raised the dead, and He told us many times that He will raise us from the dead, in fact He already did as He brought us to life after we never existed dead, everything is possible with Allah

The second verse the Sunni/Shia cults use as a confirmation of Jesus return is the following, please note the translation provided by them:

"And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye me: this is a Straight Way. "

{The Quran ; 43:61}

وَإِنَّهُ لَعِلْمٌ لِّلسَّاعَةِ فَلَا تَمْتَرُنَّ بِهَا وَاتَّبِعُونِ هَذَا صِرَاطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ (61)

->Again this verse does not say much other than a clear obvious fact, that Jesus the prophet sent by Allah is a sign to the judgment day , the Arabic word used لَعِلْمٌ is actually more accurate to be translated as Knowledge not Sign because Sign means عِلَامةٌِ , however even if I consider it as translated by thema sign then this sign has passed by the appearance of Jesus on earth for the first time, if he will appear again, then that is ok and I tend to believe that but the verse above can also be understood that he was a sign to the hour when he appeared for the first time to warn his people as all other prophets did, obviously this is clear from the message فَلَا تَمْتَرُنَّ بِهَا وَاتَّبِعُونِ i.e., : therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye me.

-> In fact the Quran has told us the signs of the hour has already passed:

Do they then wait for aught but the hour that it should come to them all of a sudden? Now indeed the tokens of it have (already) come, but how shall they have their reminder when it comes on them?

{The Quran ; 47:18}

فَهَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا السَّاعَةَ أَن تَأْتِيَهُم بَغْتَةً فَقَدْ جَاء أَشْرَاطُهَا فَأَنَّى لَهُمْ إِذَا جَاءتْهُمْ ذِكْرَاهُمْ (18)

-> While I understand perfectly that Allah may also be talking about the future when using the past tense because Allah knowledge is not restricted by time, all I will care about that the hour is coming and the prophets sent by Allah were signs to it and to warn the humans and to educate their knowledge of what they are heading for.

After all the above compelling evidences my Sunni/Shia brothers still argue hard that Jesus didnt die and was raised alive, they brought to me a verse from the Quran suggesting that it was only Jesus who said this in the Quran:

And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.

{The Quran 19:33}

وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدتُّ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا (33)

-> They see it like this, because the verse said وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ, i.e. and on the day I die, it means that Jesus didnt die, I might have given weight to their argument if it was only Jesus who said so, however I wonder how they didnt see 19:15 where it was said about prophet Yehya the exact same:

And peace on him on the day he was born, and on the day he dies, and on the day he is raised to life

{The Quran 19:15}

وَسَلَامٌ عَلَيْهِ يَوْمَ وُلِدَ وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ يُبْعَثُ حَيًّا (15)

-> As you can see, it was said about prophet Yehya the exact same and in the same sura and we know that [Yehya died murdered, and that is what وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ means, i.e. and on the day he (Yehya) dies, therefore their logic failed again because the statement in 19:33 about Jesus cant mean that he didnt die if compared with 19:15 statement about Yehya (the exact same)

My conclusion is this:

1) I cant accept that Jesus didnt die yet, because he died naturally according to 3:55

2) I may accept that Jesus will come back for a certain mission but that does not mean he didnt die

3) I believe the majority of humans die and live twice but I firmly believe that the prophets and possibly others can be excluded from that general law according to the will of our God He made that law from the first place, we have two examples from the Quran, prophet Uzair and prophet Jesus, it seems to me that both went through or yet to finish their sequence of 3 lives and 3 deaths

And finally, the only thing that makes me incline to believe that Jesus will return are the following two verses:

"He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

{The Quran 3:46}

وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (46)

-> Verse 3:46 clearly says that Jesus will talk to the people when he is a child as well when he is an old man, and because 33 years old Jesus age when he died naturally does not mean an old man which in Arabic: كَهْلاً I lean to believe that he will be raised from the dead again to fulfil a certain mission and then he will talk to the people while is an old man, this description of Jesus speaking to the people while being an old man كَهْلاً was repeated in another location in the Quran:

When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.

{The Quran 5:110}

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ اذْكُرْ نِعْمَتِي عَلَيْكَ وَعَلَى وَالِدَتِكَ إِذْ أَيَّدتُّكَ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ تُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَإِذْ عَلَّمْتُكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَالتَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ وَإِذْ تَخْلُقُ مِنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ بِإِذْنِي فَتَنفُخُ فِيهَا فَتَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِي وَتُبْرِىءُ الأَكْمَهَ وَالأَبْرَصَ بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ تُخْرِجُ الْمَوتَى بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ كَفَفْتُ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ عَنكَ إِذْ جِئْتَهُمْ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْهُمْ إِنْ هَذَا إِلاَّ سِحْرٌ مُّبِينٌ (110)


Allah knows best


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AhmedBahgat wrote:
Read this Fathom

Did Jesus die on earth before he was raised to the heaven?


Hello All

I was surprised to find many Muslims believe that Jesus was raised alive "i.e. he never died", and because Allah knew that this confusion will happen, Allah answered it in the Quran, let's have look at the verse where Allah said to Jesus that He will cause him to die "natural death" then He will raise the dead Jesus to the heaven:

YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.

SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

RASHAD KHALIFA: Thus, GOD said, O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.

{The Quran ; 3:55}

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (55)

-> It is obvious to me that Rashad Khalifa translation to that specific verse is the most accurate one, btw I disagree with most of his other stuff

-> What amazes me is this, the Arabic verse is clear, Allah said to Jesus "Ini Motawafika Wa Rafe'ak"

-> For Jesus to die on earth was a must for Allah because this is what He said in the Quran, and we know that Allah does not change His words:

"Every soul shall have a taste of death in the end to Us shall ye be brought back."

{The Quran ; 29:57}

كُلُّ نَفْسٍ ذَائِقَةُ الْمَوْتِ ثُمَّ إِلَيْنَا تُرْجَعُونَ (57)


In fact the same message that every soul must taste death was repeated in another 2 locations, {3:185}, and {21:35}, so why it is strange to accept what Allah clearly stated in 3:55 regarding putting Jesus to death?

The important fact is this, I really care less about this concept of Jesus have not died yet then his return, all I care about that the Judgment Day is coming, while to a degree I may believe in Jesus return, but this has no effect in how I believe in Allah, His prophets, His angels, His books and His Judgment Day. What bothers me though is this, many Muslims think he must return so he dies because he did not die yet.

The key word in hand is Motawafika and it seems they understand it as shown in some English translations as takes you back to Himself, again a total mistranslation to a CLEAR ARABIC WORD within its context that means Death, WAFFAH, while I agree it also means To take back, but the context of the verses clearly confirms it means its common meaning which is Death

The Quran use of that Arabic word in all other locations meant death, why in 3:55 they take it as the other very rare meaning?

Lets look at a few examples from the Clear Arabic Quran:

It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.

[The Quran ; 39:42]

اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَى عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَى إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُسَمًّى إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (42)

-> The verse is crystal clear , the same word used Yatawafa to describe both death and sleep, both share a simple fact as described in the verse that Allah removes the SOUL from our bodies when we sleep and when we die, for those who must die the souls will not come back and for the others who still have to live, their souls will return to their bodies. The argument that Jesus didnlt die by those Muslims can be demolished here even by using the meaning they prefer which is To take back, i.e. Allah will take back Jesuss soul, and consequently because the soul came out of the body, the body must go into a death or a sleep mode.

-> We certainly know that sleeping feels exactly like death , I can expand on this by using the Quran. So for some Muslims to come and tell us that Motawafika does not mean put to death, they have to be wrong, at least it will mean that Jesus soul was forced out of his body and he went into a coma or sort of a sleep the least

If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-

{The Quran ; 8:50}

وَلَوْ تَرَى إِذْ يَتَوَفَّى الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ وَذُوقُواْ عَذَابَ الْحَرِيقِ (50)

-> The word was used above and it meant death.


Say: "O ye men! If ye are in doubt as to my religion, (behold!) I worship not what ye worship, other than Allah! But I worship Allah - Who will take your souls (at death): I am commanded to be (in the ranks) of the Believers,

{The Quran ; 10:104}

قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِن كُنتُمْ فِي شَكٍّ مِّن دِينِي فَلاَ أَعْبُدُ الَّذِينَ تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ وَلَكِنْ أَعْبُدُ اللّهَ الَّذِي يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ وَأُمِرْتُ أَنْ أَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (104)

-> Again


It is Allah who creates you and takes your souls at death; and of you there are some who are sent back to a feeble age, so that they know nothing after having known (much): for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Powerful.

{The Quran ; 16:70}

وَاللّهُ خَلَقَكُمْ ثُمَّ يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ وَمِنكُم مَّن يُرَدُّ إِلَى أَرْذَلِ الْعُمُرِ لِكَيْ لاَ يَعْلَمَ بَعْدَ عِلْمٍ شَيْئًا إِنَّ اللّهَ عَلِيمٌ قَدِيرٌ (70)

-> And again


O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).

{The Quran ; 22:5}

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِن كُنتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِّنَ الْبَعْثِ فَإِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ ثُمَّ مِنْ عَلَقَةٍ ثُمَّ مِن مُّضْغَةٍ مُّخَلَّقَةٍ وَغَيْرِ مُخَلَّقَةٍ لِّنُبَيِّنَ لَكُمْ وَنُقِرُّ فِي الْأَرْحَامِ مَا نَشَاء إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى ثُمَّ نُخْرِجُكُمْ طِفْلًا ثُمَّ لِتَبْلُغُوا أَشُدَّكُمْ وَمِنكُم مَّن يُتَوَفَّى وَمِنكُم مَّن يُرَدُّ إِلَى أَرْذَلِ الْعُمُرِ لِكَيْلَا يَعْلَمَ مِن بَعْدِ عِلْمٍ شَيْئًا وَتَرَى الْأَرْضَ هَامِدَةً فَإِذَا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْهَا الْمَاء اهْتَزَّتْ وَرَبَتْ وَأَنبَتَتْ مِن كُلِّ زَوْجٍ بَهِيجٍ (5)

-> What can I say?, well, and again.


Say: The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord."

{The Quran ; 32:11}

قُلْ يَتَوَفَّاكُم مَّلَكُ الْمَوْتِ الَّذِي وُكِّلَ بِكُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَى رَبِّكُمْ تُرْجَعُونَ (11)

-> Another proof that it means Death.


It is He Who has created you from dust then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot; then does he get you out (into the light) as a child: then lets you (grow and) reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before;- and lets you reach a Term appointed; in order that ye may learn wisdom.

{The Quran ; 40:67}

هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَكُم مِّن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ ثُمَّ مِنْ عَلَقَةٍ ثُمَّ يُخْرِجُكُمْ طِفْلًا ثُمَّ لِتَبْلُغُوا أَشُدَّكُمْ ثُمَّ لِتَكُونُوا شُيُوخًا وَمِنكُم مَّن يُتَوَفَّى مِن قَبْلُ وَلِتَبْلُغُوا أَجَلًا مُّسَمًّى وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ (67)

-> More proofs

From what I presented above, it is clear the that the word يُتَوَفَّى YOTAWAFA, can also be read as the word يَتَوَفَّى YATAWAFA means put to death , it is also clear that sleeping is a type of death created by Allah, so if Allah said to Jesus that He Motawafika in 3:55, then it simply means the Jesus soul was forced out of his body, before his body was raised to the heaven by the angels or by any other mean.

The Sunni/Shia believe hard that Jesus return is confirmed by at least two verses in the Quran which we will look at later, for them this add further proofs that he didnt die. But as I stated above, I agree that Jesus may return with the will of Allah, but his return does not mean that he was not put to death by Allah contrary to what Allah stated in His Quran Motawafika, I cant see any problem for our God to raise Jesus again from the dead and send him back to earth to fulfil Allah words if required, in fact one of the sincere brothers Usama Abdullah answering Christianity logic falls to the ground really hard, his logic that the Quran said in 11:40 that all humans must die twice and live twice:

They shall say: Our Lord! twice didst Thou make us subject to death, and twice hast Thou given us life, so we do confess our faults; is there then a way to get out?

{The Quran ; 40:11}

قَالُوا رَبَّنَا أَمَتَّنَا اثْنَتَيْنِ وَأَحْيَيْتَنَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَاعْتَرَفْنَا بِذُنُوبِنَا فَهَلْ إِلَى خُرُوجٍ مِّن سَبِيلٍ (11)

-> With my respect to this man, I cant accept his flawed logic that the above verse stated all humans will die twice and live twice, so he understood it as Jesus did not die otherwise he will be forced to die 3 times, but again which he thinks will conflict with 11:40, but hold on a second, Jesus is a prophet, he is not like us, in fact he was only working for us, so he is dealt with differently by Allah, the Quran told us that prophet Uzair already died 3 times, he was dead, then Allah brought him to life, then Allah put him to death for 100 years then Allah brought him to life again, then Allah put to death again and we know that Allah will bring him to life again on the judgment day, therefore brother Usama logic can not be accepted.

Now , let me comment on the two verses they use as a confirmation of Jesus return:

"And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them."

{The Quran ; 4:159}

وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا (159)

-> The above translation to 4:159 provided by the Sunni is 100% wrong, they think that the verse means before Jesus dies all the Christians and the Jews must believe in him, I say hold on a minute on that second argument of his return, lets finish the first one first (hid death), the Arabic verse does not mean that Jesus was not put to death by Allah, simply Allah can raise Jesus again from the dead any time He wants for whatever number of times He wants, even if the above verse means that all the Christians and Jews will believe in him at one point in time, the verse still has nothing to do with him being put to death or not.

-> The important point that they blindly ignore this, why not this verse applies at the time when Jesus was put to death by Allah according to 3:55 as I explained earlier?, i.e. there was SOME people of the Book who believed in Jesus, i.e. the verse might be talking about the time in the past just before Jesus was put to death naturally by Allah then raised, in fact the Arabic words may mean that NOT ALL OF THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK WILL BELIEVE IN JESUS, ONLY SOME as the Arabic words suggest: وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ i.e. Some of the people of the Book NOT ALL, it is strange to translate it as ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK, see, if مِّنْMin was not there, then yes it will mean all the people of the book, but because Min is there then it means some of them and not all.

-> Now if we consider that the verse is talking about Jesus return, then I see no problem with that, Allah will raise Jesus from the dead again, send him to earth to do an important task, then put Jesus to death again, what is wrong with that?, Allah does what He wants when He wants with no restrictions

Well, Allah told us in the Quran that He put prophet Uzair to death for 100 years and He raised him to life again as I explained earlier, same with Abraham, Allah told us that He showed Abraham how He raised the dead, and He told us many times that He will raise us from the dead, in fact He already did as He brought us to life after we never existed dead, everything is possible with Allah

The second verse the Sunni/Shia cults use as a confirmation of Jesus return is the following, please note the translation provided by them:

"And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye me: this is a Straight Way. "

{The Quran ; 43:61}

وَإِنَّهُ لَعِلْمٌ لِّلسَّاعَةِ فَلَا تَمْتَرُنَّ بِهَا وَاتَّبِعُونِ هَذَا صِرَاطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ (61)

->Again this verse does not say much other than a clear obvious fact, that Jesus the prophet sent by Allah is a sign to the judgment day , the Arabic word used لَعِلْمٌ is actually more accurate to be translated as Knowledge not Sign because Sign means عِلَامةٌِ , however even if I consider it as translated by thema sign then this sign has passed by the appearance of Jesus on earth for the first time, if he will appear again, then that is ok and I tend to believe that but the verse above can also be understood that he was a sign to the hour when he appeared for the first time to warn his people as all other prophets did, obviously this is clear from the message فَلَا تَمْتَرُنَّ بِهَا وَاتَّبِعُونِ i.e., : therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye me.

-> In fact the Quran has told us the signs of the hour has already passed:

Do they then wait for aught but the hour that it should come to them all of a sudden? Now indeed the tokens of it have (already) come, but how shall they have their reminder when it comes on them?

{The Quran ; 47:18}

فَهَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا السَّاعَةَ أَن تَأْتِيَهُم بَغْتَةً فَقَدْ جَاء أَشْرَاطُهَا فَأَنَّى لَهُمْ إِذَا جَاءتْهُمْ ذِكْرَاهُمْ (1Cool

-> While I understand perfectly that Allah may also be talking about the future when using the past tense because Allah knowledge is not restricted by time, all I will care about that the hour is coming and the prophets sent by Allah were signs to it and to warn the humans and to educate their knowledge of what they are heading for.

After all the above compelling evidences my Sunni/Shia brothers still argue hard that Jesus didnt die and was raised alive, they brought to me a verse from the Quran suggesting that it was only Jesus who said this in the Quran:

And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.

{The Quran 19:33}

وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدتُّ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا (33)

-> They see it like this, because the verse said وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ, i.e. and on the day I die, it means that Jesus didnt die, I might have given weight to their argument if it was only Jesus who said so, however I wonder how they didnt see 19:15 where it was said about prophet Yehya the exact same:

And peace on him on the day he was born, and on the day he dies, and on the day he is raised to life

{The Quran 19:15}

وَسَلَامٌ عَلَيْهِ يَوْمَ وُلِدَ وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ يُبْعَثُ حَيًّا (15)

-> As you can see, it was said about prophet Yehya the exact same and in the same sura and we know that [Yehya died murdered, and that is what وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ means, i.e. and on the day he (Yehya) dies, therefore their logic failed again because the statement in 19:33 about Jesus cant mean that he didnt die if compared with 19:15 statement about Yehya (the exact same)

My conclusion is this:

1) I cant accept that Jesus didnt die yet, because he died naturally according to 3:55

2) I may accept that Jesus will come back for a certain mission but that does not mean he didnt die

3) I believe the majority of humans die and live twice but I firmly believe that the prophets and possibly others can be excluded from that general law according to the will of our God He made that law from the first place, we have two examples from the Quran, prophet Uzair and prophet Jesus, it seems to me that both went through or yet to finish their sequence of 3 lives and 3 deaths

And finally, the only thing that makes me incline to believe that Jesus will return are the following two verses:

"He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

{The Quran 3:46}

وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (46)

-> Verse 3:46 clearly says that Jesus will talk to the people when he is a child as well when he is an old man, and because 33 years old Jesus age when he died naturally does not mean an old man which in Arabic: كَهْلاً I lean to believe that he will be raised from the dead again to fulfil a certain mission and then he will talk to the people while is an old man, this description of Jesus speaking to the people while being an old man كَهْلاً was repeated in another location in the Quran:

When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.

{The Quran 5:110}

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ اذْكُرْ نِعْمَتِي عَلَيْكَ وَعَلَى وَالِدَتِكَ إِذْ أَيَّدتُّكَ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ تُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَإِذْ عَلَّمْتُكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَالتَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ وَإِذْ تَخْلُقُ مِنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ بِإِذْنِي فَتَنفُخُ فِيهَا فَتَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِي وَتُبْرِىءُ الأَكْمَهَ وَالأَبْرَصَ بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ تُخْرِجُ الْمَوتَى بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ كَفَفْتُ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ عَنكَ إِذْ جِئْتَهُمْ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْهُمْ إِنْ هَذَا إِلاَّ سِحْرٌ مُّبِينٌ (110)


Allah knows best


Salam


The biggest problem you are going to have with this is the following verse:

5.117

"I (Jesus) never said anything to them except what you commanded me to say, which was, "Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them when I lived among them. And when You caused me to die, it was You who then watched over them, and You are a witness to all things."

You claim that Jesus' soul was forced out of his body and then his body was taken to heaven. In effect, you are claiming that Jesus is dead.

Well then, if Jesus is dead, how can he be speaking to Allah in 5.117?

No, the Quran clearly shows the Jesus is alive and is with Allah in heaven. Dead people don't speak.

So how is this possible? Simple. Jesus died, and was resurrected to life by Allah, and taken to heaven alive, just like Allah's other book says he was.

Also, there is no evidence to support that Jesus died a natural death. There is no evidence to support Jesus' age as being 33 when he died, and there is some evidence in the Gospel to suggest he was almost 50 years old when he died. Look at the following:

John-8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not quite fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham?"

Jesus was crucified by the will of Allah, resurrected by the will of Allah, and taken to Heaven by the will of Allah. Jesus even says this in the Gospel.
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Fathom wrote:
The biggest problem you are going to have with this is the following verse:
5.117
"I (Jesus) never said anything to them except what you commanded me to say, which was, "Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them when I lived among them. And when You caused me to die, it was You who then watched over them, and You are a witness to all things."


Hello Fathom

Let me bring my translation for 5:116-119




وَإِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلاَ أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلاَّمُ الْغُيُوبِ (116)

And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Mariam! Did you say to the people: Take me and my mother as two gods other than Allah? He (Isa) will say: Glory be to You, it was not for me to say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, You would have known it; You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is in Yourself. Indeed, it is you Who are the Knowing of the unseen.
[Al Quran ; 5:116]


مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ (117)

I did not say to them except that by which you commanded me, to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, but when You caused me to die, it is You Who were the Watcher over them, and You are over everything Witness.
[Al Quran ; 5:117]


إِن تُعَذِّبْهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ عِبَادُكَ وَإِن تَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ فَإِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ (118)

If You castigate them, then indeed, they are Your servants; and if You forgive them, then indeed, it is You Who are the Mighty, Wise.
[Al Quran ; 5:118]


قَالَ اللّهُ هَذَا يَوْمُ يَنفَعُ الصَّادِقِينَ صِدْقُهُمْ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٌ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا رَّضِيَ اللّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُواْ عَنْهُ ذَلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ (119)

Allah will say: This is the day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness; for them are gardens beneath which rivers flow, abiding therein forever. Allah will be pleased with them and they will be pleased with Him. That is the great victory.
[Al Quran ; 5:119]



Fathom wrote:
You claim that Jesus' soul was forced out of his body and then his body was taken to heaven. In effect, you are claiming that Jesus is dead.


Of course, this verse confirms my understanding that Jesus was raised to the heaven dead body



إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (55)

When Allah said: O Isa! I am going to cause you to die and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who have disbelieved, and will make those who have followed you above those who have disbelieved until the day of resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and l will judge between you concerning that in which you used to disagree.
[Al Quran ; 3:55]



-> As you can see Allah said to Jesus إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ , i.e. I am going to cause you to die and raise you , i.e. Jesus was made to die first, then he was raised to the heaven

Fathom wrote:
Well then, if Jesus is dead, how can he be speaking to Allah in 5.117?


Because that speech between Allah and Jesus will be on the Day of Judgement, see the verse you missed, 5:119



قَالَ اللّهُ هَذَا يَوْمُ يَنفَعُ الصَّادِقِينَ صِدْقُهُمْ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٌ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا رَّضِيَ اللّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُواْ عَنْهُ ذَلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ (119)

Allah will say: This is the day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness; for them are gardens beneath which rivers flow, abiding therein forever. Allah will be pleased with them and they will be pleased with Him. That is the great victory.
[Al Quran ; 5:119]



-> I.e. the speech between Allah and Jesus is a predicted speech on the Day of Judgment when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness; for them are gardens beneath which rivers flow, abiding therein forever. Allah will be pleased with them and they will be pleased with Him. That is the great victory.

Therefore, you have totally misunderstood the context of the verses.

Fathom wrote:
No, the Quran clearly shows the Jesus is alive and is with Allah in heaven. Dead people don't speak.


You are wrong. the Quran says Jesus is dead, read above

Fathom wrote:
So how is this possible? Simple. Jesus died, and was resurrected to life by Allah, and taken to heaven alive, just like Allah's other book says he was.


Absolutely not; bring your proofs from the Quran, if you should be truthful.

Fathom wrote:
Also, there is no evidence to support that Jesus died a natural death. There is no evidence to support Jesus' age as being 33 when he died, and there is some evidence in the Gospel to suggest he was almost 50 years old when he died. Look at the following:


I don�????�???�??�?�¢??t care about all these details, what I care about is what the Quran says

Fathom wrote:
John-8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not quite fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham?"


Where is that that it says he was 50? The passage above denies that he was 50.

Fathom wrote:
Jesus was crucified by the will of Allah, resurrected by the will of Allah, and taken to Heaven by the will of Allah. Jesus even says this in the Gospel.


The Quran proves that you are wrong:



وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلاَّ اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا (157)

And (for) their saying: Indeed, We have killed Christ Isa son of Mariam, the messenger of Allah. But they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it was made to look so to them; and indeed, those who disagreed over him are in doubt about him. They have no knowledge of it except following conjectures; and they killed him not for certain.
[Al Quran ; 4:157]



-> But they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it was made to look so to them;


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Post subject: Re: Surah 4.159 Reply with quote  

Fathom wrote:
This verse ranks as the single most confusing verse in the entire Quran. I have never seen a really good interpretation of this verse.

And indeed, there is among the people of the book who will surely believe in him before his death. And on the day of resurrection he will be against them a witness.
[Al Quran ; 4:159]

The translation above just doesn't make any sense. If there were People of the Book believing in what Jesus said, why then would Jesus be a witness against them?


Many of the Prophets sent to the Israelites were rejected, killed and opposed Matt23:37, Jesus being one of them Jn8:37. He explained this wicked trend through The Parable of the Tenants Matt21:33-45 and foresaw their destruction and "that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit" to shut down their constant boasting of their lineage and past covenant with God which they always violated.
He continued his ministry among them until the hatred and arrogance of the Jewish priests and rabbis made him select a group of apostles from among his few followers to be his helpers in his mission. Jesus sensed their deep unbelief and was afraid that if the conspirors succeeded in destroying his life, his mission would fail 5:111,61:14,3:52"But when Isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said: "Who are my helper to Allah?" The disciples said: "We are helpers of Allah: We believe in Allah and be (our) witness that we are submitting ones".

It is a fact attested that very few from the people of the book (Bani Israel) believed in him during his ministry Acts1:13-16. But in 4:159 we are told that ALL of his contemporaries, followers and disbelievers alike will ultimately believe in him before the death of each one of them (a belief that wont be accepted in the case of the disbelievers as the Quran often says about 4:18"those who go on doing evil deeds, until when death comes to one of them, he says: "Surely, now I repent""). Allah made the people of the book of Jesus' time who rejected him see death before it took them so that they were compelled to believe but that last minute belief will not benefit them since it does not have the time to assert and prove itself in practice, it is a form of divine punishement "And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly will believe in him before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness over them".

4:159 must be talking about Jesus' contemporaries only. The clue is at the end of the verse "and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness over them". The Quran accurately quotes Jesus on Judgement Day limiting his evidence for the period when he was alive among his people, before his being taken away 5:117"And I was a witness over them so long as I was among them; when You did take me up You were the watcher over them and You are witness over all things". This proves that 4:159 must be refering to those contemporaries of Jesus because it is speaking of Jesus being a witness over them on Judgement Day and his testimony will only be required for his contemporaries, per 5:117.

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Sun 15 May, 2011 8:19 pm
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Re: Surah 4.159 Reply with quote  

shindeiru wrote:
It is a fact attested that very few from the people of the book (Bani Israel) believed in him during his ministry Acts1:13-16. But in 4:159 we are told that ALL of his contemporaries, followers and disbelievers alike will ultimately believe in him before the death of each one of them (a belief that wont be accepted in the case of the disbelievers as the Quran often says about 4:18"those who go on doing evil deeds, until when death comes to one of them, he says: "Surely, now I repent""). Allah made the people of the book of Jesus' time who rejected him see death before it took them so that they were compelled to believe but that last minute belief will not benefit them since it does not have the time to assert and prove itself in practice, it is a form of divine punishement "And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly will believe in him before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness over them".


Welcome brother shindeiru

Great understanding and very plausible indeed

Cheers

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Sun 15 May, 2011 8:56 pm
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Ahmed, I need you to do an exhaustive search of the Arabic word that is used for "raised" or "raising" in the Quran. I want you to investigate historically as to whether or not the same word is interchangeable with the word used for "resurrect/resurrected/resurrection."

Take a scholarly approach to this task, and then present your findings here.
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Sun 15 May, 2011 11:48 pm
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Post subject: Re: Surah 4.159 Reply with quote  

shindeiru wrote:
Fathom wrote:
This verse ranks as the single most confusing verse in the entire Quran. I have never seen a really good interpretation of this verse.

And indeed, there is among the people of the book who will surely believe in him before his death. And on the day of resurrection he will be against them a witness.
[Al Quran ; 4:159]

The translation above just doesn't make any sense. If there were People of the Book believing in what Jesus said, why then would Jesus be a witness against them?


Many of the Prophets sent to the Israelites were rejected, killed and opposed Matt23:37, Jesus being one of them Jn8:37. He explained this wicked trend through The Parable of the Tenants Matt21:33-45 and foresaw their destruction and "that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit" to shut down their constant boasting of their lineage and past covenant with God which they always violated.
He continued his ministry among them until the hatred and arrogance of the Jewish priests and rabbis made him select a group of apostles from among his few followers to be his helpers in his mission. Jesus sensed their deep unbelief and was afraid that if the conspirors succeeded in destroying his life, his mission would fail 5:111,61:14,3:52"But when Isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said: "Who are my helper to Allah?" The disciples said: "We are helpers of Allah: We believe in Allah and be (our) witness that we are submitting ones".

It is a fact attested that very few from the people of the book (Bani Israel) believed in him during his ministry Acts1:13-16. But in 4:159 we are told that ALL of his contemporaries, followers and disbelievers alike will ultimately believe in him before the death of each one of them (a belief that wont be accepted in the case of the disbelievers as the Quran often says about 4:18"those who go on doing evil deeds, until when death comes to one of them, he says: "Surely, now I repent""). Allah made the people of the book of Jesus' time who rejected him see death before it took them so that they were compelled to believe but that last minute belief will not benefit them since it does not have the time to assert and prove itself in practice, it is a form of divine punishement "And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly will believe in him before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness over them".

4:159 must be talking about Jesus' contemporaries only. The clue is at the end of the verse "and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness over them". The Quran accurately quotes Jesus on Judgement Day limiting his evidence for the period when he was alive among his people, before his being taken away 5:117"And I was a witness over them so long as I was among them; when You did take me up You were the watcher over them and You are witness over all things". This proves that 4:159 must be refering to those contemporaries of Jesus because it is speaking of Jesus being a witness over them on Judgement Day and his testimony will only be required for his contemporaries, per 5:117.


Therefore, while using your interpretation of the verse, would the following English interpretation reflect the truth of the meaning of the verse in your opinion?


4.159 وَإِنْ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلا لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا

4.159 And all of the People of the Book will believe in Jesus before their deaths, for on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them.
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Mon 16 May, 2011 1:37 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Fathom wrote:
Ahmed, I need you to do an exhaustive search of the Arabic word that is used for "raised" or "raising" in the Quran. I want you to investigate historically as to whether or not the same word is interchangeable with the word used for "resurrect/resurrected/resurrection."

Take a scholarly approach to this task, and then present your findings here.


Hello mate

I dont need to to research it, I know it cannot be used to mean resurrect/resurrected/resurrection, therefore it cannot be found in the Quran to mean so. the Arabic word is رفع, which to mean to raise something above another, it has nothing to do with rasurrection, in fact the word appeared in the Quran abour 22 times, in all times it means to raise something above another

Cheers

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