Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject: overenthusiastic sunnis and shiite kufr
# many times i come across a "shiite beief" posted on a sunni site, which in reality is not a shiite belief but sunni imagination working overtime! here's an example:
Kufr ( Disbelief) on the Prophet Sallallahu alayhi wa salaam
Look at yet another ridiculous "Hadeeth" from Al Kafi, H 641, Ch. 40, h 7.
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from ‘Umar ibn Udhayna from Fudayl ibn Yasar, Burayd ibn Mu‘wiya and Zurarah who have said that ‘Abdallah ibn ‘Abd al-Malik said the following to abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.), "The Zaydi sect and al-Mu‘tazali group circle around Muhammad ibn ‘Abdallah. Does he have any authority?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "I swear by Allah that with me there are two books in which there is the name of every prophet and the name of every king that would rule on earth. No, I swear by Allah, the name of Muhammad ibn ‘Abdallah is not in the list as one of them."
The Narration is saying, that Muhammad ibn Abdullah Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, is not mentioned as one of the prophets. Astaghfirullah!
# many times i come across a "shiite beief" posted on a sunni site, which in reality is not a shiite belief but sunni imagination working overtime! here's an example:
At this moment Im more concerned about your post than the hadith mentioned in it. Sunni against Shia
Its been only couple of years that I have started to read about religion and it appears to me that sunni thoughts are nearer to christians and shia thoughts are nearer to jews (correct me if Im wrong). I use to watch 'sham-e-graiba' on tv, the big shia event on 10th of muhraam. I remember the scholar whom I still respect alot started with defination of Allah, what Allah likes and dislikes. then sometime back I read an rabbi, belief it or not the sentences were the same except that the language was different.
So bro none is better than the other, be it shia, sunni, aloner, etc etc etc. There are some people in these groups who are better, just like there are good muslims and bad muslims. It will be wise if you pinpoint the induvisals. We should careless whos titled who, what matter is the person not the group.
Takecare
Posted:
Fri 02 Mar, 2007 8:11 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
another clear evidence to the absurdity of the heresay hadith
# lolz!
## salam mate! (-:
Quote:
life wrote:
At this moment Im more concerned about your post than the hadith mentioned in it. Sunni against Shia
# most of their online variety are chips off the same block....preachers they are; as far away removed from god as they claim others to be....methinks! (-:
Quote:
Its been only couple of years that I have started to read about religion and it appears to me that sunni thoughts are nearer to christians and shia thoughts are nearer to jews (correct me if Im wrong).
# i dunno bro...i feel that the shiite concept of salvation is pretty much like the christian 1...
christians say: no salvation except thru christ! : yay :
shiites say: no salvation except thru imams! : yay :
Quote:
I use to watch 'sham-e-graiba' on tv, the big shia event on 10th of muhraam. I remember the scholar whom I still respect alot started with defination of Allah, what Allah likes and dislikes. then sometime back I read an rabbi, belief it or not the sentences were the same except that the language was different.
# could u tell us, bro, what the scholarain said?
Quote:
So bro none is better than the other, be it shia, sunni, aloner, etc etc etc.
# hmmm...tell u what...i distinguish between a school of thut and its adherents...i try to!
but.....
...i think these people are more sunnis and shiites than muslims!
## as for the aloners...if u mean quran-aloners, to be honest, i havent seen 1 yet; hadith-rejectors, yes! i think it's a trap that sum peepz have fallen into....any munafiq comes along criticizing traditions and distorting the quran, and others label him/her a quran-aloner!
initially i thut munafiqs posing as quran-aloners is a reason why traditionalists still cling on to their traditions so dearly; however, i think such a line of thut is not justified....and anybody who is sincere, be it a traditionalist or a non-muslim, will let reason prevail over madness! (-:
Quote:
There are some people in these groups who are better,
# i agree! (-:
Quote:
just like there are good muslims and bad muslims.
# and what is a "bad muslim"? can u give me some characteristics of a bad muslim? (-:
Quote:
It will be wise if you pinpoint the induvisals.
# i ll leave the burden of being wise to u, bro; it's something i do not harbor illusions of attaining to! : blush :
...as for pinpointing indi(vidual)z...i did...i think: i tried to draw attn to the overenthu(siastic) among the sunnis, and followed it up with an example of an overenthu feller who failed to realise that generations seperate the muhammad mentioned in the tradition and the muhammad he has in his mind!
Quote:
We should careless whos titled who,
what matter is the person not the group.
# i agree, and wonder why anybody would aspire to a "title" other than muslim and a group other than muslims!
again, if an indi claims to be a shiite or a sunni...then at times it may reveal the person's thut-process...especially of those who are active readers of quran and traditions, and realise the (at times) vast disparity between the two! worst, i ve seen indiz who preach unto others but practise naught! (-:
# salam! (-:
# take care, life! (-:
Posted:
Sat 03 Mar, 2007 7:11 pm
Life Pawn
Status: Age: 85 Faith: Islam
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 174
Post subject:
Salam The,
Sorry again for late reply, I actually missed this post.
Quote:
Quote: LIFE �??????�?????�????�???�??�?�¢�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¬�??????�?????�????�???�??�?�¹ Select �??????�?????�????�???�??�?�¢�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¬�??????�?????�????�???�??�?�º
I use to watch 'sham-e-graiba' on tv, the big shia event on 10th of muhraam. I remember the scholar whom I still respect alot started with defination of Allah, what Allah likes and dislikes. then sometime back I read an rabbi, belief it or not the sentences were the same except that the language was different.
Quote:
# could u tell us, bro, what the scholarain said?
I need to find the CD which I recorded, I will quote you both of them, but only after I return from my 3wks holidays.
Quote:
# and what is a "bad muslim"? can u give me some characteristics of a bad muslim? (-:
Characteristics, you will interpret it into munafiqs, etc. etc. etc., for example the not so famous arnldyasin frm fm, the guy who tells jinns are human, hell is state of mind, bla bla bla.
Quote:
## as for the aloners...if u mean quran-aloners, to be honest, i havent seen 1 yet; hadith-rejectors, yes! i think it's a trap that sum peepz have fallen into....any munafiq comes along criticizing traditions and distorting the quran, and others label him/her a quran-aloner!
I dont want to argue here but yes there are many who call themselves quranaloners and they will tell you they aint muslims. Mostly of them are khailfa followers. Im surprised you havent seen any at fm.
from wiki:
Main article: United Submitters International
The term is closely associated with the late Rashad Khalifa, a member of the United Submitters International. While the USI do not refer to themselves as "Muslim" or claim to be "Islamic," they follow the Quran alone. The group popularized the phrase: the Qur'an, the whole Qur'an, and nothing but the Qur'an. After Khalifa declared himself a messenger of God, he was rejected as an apostate of Islam. He was assassinated in 1990. Beside following the Qur'an only philosophy they also believe that there is a mathematical structure in the Qur'an based on the number 19.
takecare bro!
Posted:
Mon 12 Mar, 2007 11:07 am
Al-Quraishi Site Admin
Status: Age: 117 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 19, 2006
Posts: 70
Post subject:
Quote:
Its been only couple of years that I have started to read about religion and it appears to me that sunni thoughts are nearer to christians and shia thoughts are nearer to jews (correct me if Im wrong). I use to watch 'sham-e-graiba' on tv, the big shia event on 10th of muhraam. I remember the scholar whom I still respect alot started with defination of Allah, what Allah likes and dislikes. then sometime back I read an rabbi, belief it or not the sentences were the same except that the language was different.
Salam,
It's funny you say that given the Sunni rumour I always used to be told by my Saudi friends that Shiism started by Jews. But quite importantly I admire the Shia concept of God and there seems to be fewer contradictions with what God says in the Qur'an compared to the additional Sunni beliefs regarding physical attributes 'hand' 'leg' etc the Shiah see these metaphorical including the obvious ones included in the Qur'an, how do you describe something that is not tied to the physical world?
I think the Sunnis and Shiahs each hold onto some admirable concepts whist at the same time they occupy opposite ends of the theological spectrum. Whereas a Sunni has been frightened in making or acknowledging even the slightest criticism of any Saheeb which borders if not crosses the line of Saintly veneration, the Shia will condem outright certain members of the Sahaba close to the prophet of being complete and utter kafirs.
So you have the Sunnis making rediculous theories as to why all Sahaba should be followed and trying to compromise the fights and questionable actions that arose in the first Fitna i.e. Mu'aiwiyah is a perfect example. And you have the Shiah practically condemming half of the sahaba to hell and not even noting one iota of information that may be obtained from them.
Posted:
Mon 12 Mar, 2007 12:37 pm
Life Pawn
Status: Age: 85 Faith: Islam
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 174
Post subject:
Salam Zayd,
Quote:
It's funny you say that given the Sunni rumour I always used to be told by my Saudi friends that Shiism started by Jews.
Well I dont see anything funny because thats how I conclude, without the rumors you mentioned.
Quote:
how do you describe something that is not tied to the physical world?
I can try to describe provided you name that 'something'
Quote:
I think the Sunnis and Shiahs each hold onto some admirable concepts whist at the same time they occupy opposite ends of the theological spectrum. Whereas a Sunni has been frightened in making or acknowledging even the slightest criticism of any Saheeb which borders if not crosses the line of Saintly veneration, the Shia will condem outright certain members of the Sahaba close to the prophet of being complete and utter kafirs.
I dont care what SunniS or ShiaS say, what matter is the PERSON.
Posted:
Mon 12 Mar, 2007 8:11 pm
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
life wrote:
I need to find the CD which I recorded, I will quote you both of them, but only after I return from my 3wks holidays.
# never mind, bro....even if they do express the same ideas it wouldnt amount to much! (-:
Quote:
Characteristics, you will interpret it into munafiqs, etc. etc. etc., for example the not so famous arnldyasin frm fm, the guy who tells jinns are human, hell is state of mind, bla bla bla.
# well...no, actually at some places djinns are humans, at some other places they are aliens (foreigners), still other place they are nature/emotions/fantasies! at times they are people who are not seen too often....at other times they are leaders and chieftains!
# by "bad muslims" i thut u meant who do believe in god and quran...but do not practise it's teaching for some reason! (-:
Quote:
I dont want to argue here but yes there are many who call themselves quranaloners and they will tell you they aint muslims. Mostly of them are khailfa followers. Im surprised you havent seen any at fm.
# i am not interested in whether peepz call themselves x, y and z....bro! munafiqs call themselves muslims, but that does not make them muslims!
Quote:
from wiki:
Main article: United Submitters International
The term is closely associated with the late Rashad Khalifa, a member of the United Submitters International. While the USI do not refer to themselves as "Muslim" or claim to be "Islamic," they follow the Quran alone. The group popularized the phrase: the Qur'an, the whole Qur'an, and nothing but the Qur'an. After Khalifa declared himself a messenger of God, he was rejected as an apostate of Islam. He was assassinated in 1990. Beside following the Qur'an only philosophy they also believe that there is a mathematical structure in the Qur'an based on the number 19.
# the "submitters" i have come across simply state that "muslim" is "submitter" in arabic...and in english they can use the words submission and submitter in lieu of islam and submitter, which i dont find objectionable! many of their beliefs and practises are pretty similar to what the traditionalists, and i believe some of us here, have! i will quote from the submission website:
I. What forms the basis of your religion?
The worship or God alone in accordance with God's revelations as found in the Quran. (Quran 17:46, 39:45)
12. is belief in the existence of God enough?
No. Satan believes in the existence of God but he is not going to Paradise. Belief in God is necessary but not sufficient. One also needs to accept God's attributes and live according to His laws. It's an effort/reward system. (Quran 2:1-5, 23:1-11).
source: http://www.submission.org/teachers/islam.html
Of course submission will not be complete unless one obeys God's every command in his Glorious book, The Holy Qur'an and by observing the duties encumbered by all Muslims (submitters) such as; Salat, Fasting, Zakat and Hajj.
# i am not agreeing with them over everything they say, but still, this is very different from the munafiqs who use the label to simply disguise their own faith, and subtly propogate pantheism, judaism, or whatever their faith is! (-:
# take care...salam, bro! (-:
Posted:
Tue 13 Mar, 2007 1:08 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
zayd wrote:
It's funny you say that given the Sunni rumour I always used to be told by my Saudi friends that Shiism started by Jews.
# this claim by sunnis can get very embarrassing (for them) if somebody engages them over it....i ve seen more than a couple of sunnis wish they hadnt made that claim! : grin :
Quote:
But quite importantly I admire the Shia concept of God and there seems to be fewer contradictions with what God says in the Qur'an compared to the Sunni beliefs regarding physical attributes 'hand' 'leg' etc
# that's a shiite fallacy....dunn think all sunnis dont claim that...and its ironic that shiites do tend to generalise!
Quote:
I think the Sunnis and Shiahs each hold onto some admirable concepts whist at the same time they occupy opposite ends of the theological spectrum. Whereas a Sunni has been frightened in making or acknowledging even the slightest criticism of any Saheeb which borders if not crosses the line of Saintly veneration, the Shia will condem outright certain members of the Sahaba close to the prophet of being complete and utter kafirs.
# right, bro...it is the sunni obstinacy which is hard to miss...u give them traditions from their own books - they will wriggle and squirm - but not face upto the truth!
...at the same time, the shiites can be pretty deceptive...esp the online variety...it's hard to get them to accept the shortcomings their own works....and they are more likely to lie about their beliefs than sunnis...infact many of whom i have talked to believe that lying (read dissimulation) is a means of blessing (they read taqwa as taqqiya)! if i am wrong then do correct me! (-:
Quote:
So you have the Sunnis making rediculous theories as to why all Sahaba should be followed and trying to compromise the fights and questionable actions that arose in the first Fitna i.e. Mu'aiwiyah is a perfect example. And you have the Shiah practically condemming half of the sahaba to hell and not even noting one iota of information that may be obtained from them.
# no offence...but when it comes to accepting quran over traditions....both of them can manage to be equally uninterested! (-:
Posted:
Tue 13 Mar, 2007 1:23 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
life wrote:
Sorry brother but for me the examples are you, The, AB and people around me. To find wisdom from history, one has to be honeybee, you go flower to flower and collect the juice.
# it was pretty foresightful of u to be sorry...cuz not any of those u mentioned by name has condemned anybody to hell!: grin :
the bees..they are everywhere! :-S
Quote:
The people who aint labled muslims are roughly 5billion plus, do you think they all are going to hell ?
# how many (billions/millions/hundreds) are going to hell? :mr.know-not-at-all:
# take care bro...salam! (-:
Posted:
Tue 13 Mar, 2007 1:28 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
i wrote:
Quote:
# that's a shiite fallacy....dunn think all sunnis dont claim that...and its ironic that shiites do tend to generalise!
# should read: "...dunn think all sunnis claim that..." : sowwy :
Posted:
Tue 13 Mar, 2007 1:32 am
Life Pawn
Status: Age: 85 Faith: Islam
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 174
Post subject:
Quote:
Quote: LIFE �??????�?????�????�???�??�?�¢�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¬�??????�?????�????�???�??�?�¹ Select �??????�?????�????�???�??�?�¢�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¬�??????�?????�????�???�??�?�º
Characteristics, you will interpret it into munafiqs, etc. etc. etc., for example the not so famous arnldyasin frm fm, the guy who tells jinns are human, hell is state of mind, bla bla bla.
THE:
# well...no, actually at some places djinns are humans, at some other places they are aliens (foreigners), still other place they are nature/emotions/fantasies! at times they are people who are not seen too often....at other times they are leaders and chieftains!
To what I have learned is jinns are different species, if not please explain me bro.
Salam
Posted:
Tue 13 Mar, 2007 9:12 pm
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
life wrote:
To what I have learned is jinns are different species, if not please explain me bro.
# that was how the bloke u mentioned approaches the subject of djinns.....seems to believe "djinn" is malleable! (-;
..yes, as per quran, djinns are a creation like humans! (-:
# salam! (-:
Posted:
Wed 14 Mar, 2007 1:01 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
# okay...just in case this has escaped anybody's notice, my initial post does not accuse shiites of kufr; instead, it highlights the fact that some sunnis take things well out of context and make false accusations against shiites!
Posted:
Wed 14 Mar, 2007 4:51 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
zayd wrote:
LOL Covering your own back from unnecessary attacks too eh bro?
# lolz...not really....i ve seen a few peepz think i ve exposed "shiite kufr", so i just wanted to make sure that the "shiite kufr" in the title doesnt mislead innocent peepz! (-:
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