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Information Is Allah the best of deceivers?

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AhmedBahgat
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for brother SOA

I have done all the required configuration and tested it, I'm having breakfast now, after I finish I will post and email you all the info you need


for brother BMZ

I will see what I can do bro, if they let us down then I will add you to brother SOA Terminal Server group

cheers

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Post Posted:
Sat 22 Sep, 2007 7:27 pm
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Brother SOA

are you ready to browse FFI?, LOL

ok I will try to make the steps as clear as possible

1) at you XP maxhine, press <Start> -> <All Programs> -> <Accessories> -> <Communications> -> <Remote Desktop Connection>

2) you will be presented with a screen asking you for a computer name : type in the box the IP address I will PM you

3) a new desktop will appear with a logon screen, the logon info will be PMed to you

4) after logging on you will see your remote desktop that I created for you, an identical desktop to your XP maxhine but with a lot of limitations, in fact you can only run Internet Explorer or the Logoff Terminal Server program on your desktop

5) Double click the icon Internet Explorer on your desktop and you should see FFI forum board (I made it your default home page), that's all


please be aware I created an outlook shortcut on your remote desktop but it is not working yet, just in case you want to join FFI and would like to use an email on the remote desktop to make things easier for you, but we will talk about that later on inshaallah

please let me know if everyting is ok

Cheers

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Post Posted:
Sat 22 Sep, 2007 7:57 pm
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BMZ
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
for brother SOA

I have done all the required configuration and tested it, I'm having breakfast now, after I finish I will post and email you all the info you need


for brother BMZ

I will see what I can do bro, if they let us down then I will add you to brother SOA Terminal Server group

cheers


No worries, mate. You will be surprised to know that Ali Sina is only an internet character, mostly known to the Internet Christians and atheists. LOL! Most of the Muslims, I spoke with, have not even heard of the man in silhouette. LOL!

Salaams
BMZ
Post Posted:
Sat 22 Sep, 2007 10:31 pm
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IntellectualWarfare1
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Bro.

Also in Surah Nuh Chapter 71 Verse 22, Noah says "Wa Makaru Makran Kubara"

I have a very limited knowledge of Arabic but I know that "Wa" means something like "and"

And Kubara is probably related to Kabeer, which means the same thing; ie "great"

And Makaru and Makran mean the same thing as Makireen, except the latter is used in a plural sense

Using the Quran, you can prove what the word Makireen can mean in this context
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Mon 15 Oct, 2007 2:21 am
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BMZ
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IntellectualWarfare1 wrote:
Bro.

Also in Surah Nuh Chapter 71 Verse 22, Noah says "Wa Makaru Makran Kubara"

I have a very limited knowledge of Arabic but I know that "Wa" means something like "and"

And Kubara is probably related to Kabeer, which means the same thing; ie "great"

And Makaru and Makran mean the same thing as Makireen, except the latter is used in a plural sense

Using the Quran, you can prove what the word Makireen can mean in this context


Salaams & Eid Mubarak IW1,

Yes, you got it almost right. Just a little note:

Wa makaru.....They planned or they made a plot, which in turn can be best described as "they plotted".

Makar Kubbaara... a great plot

In the wonderful and thunderous language of Qur'aan, When adding adjective to a noun Makar, it becomes Makaran-Kubbaara, to rhyme with other verses of Surah Nuh. In normal Arabic usage, it would be Makarun-Kabeer.

Makaru is the verb for using with people, Makaran in the verse is a noun and Kubbaara is the adjective. It is from the word Kabeer, which means Great. Akbar also means the same.

BMZ
Post Posted:
Mon 15 Oct, 2007 3:08 am
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BMZ wrote:
IntellectualWarfare1 wrote:
Bro.

Also in Surah Nuh Chapter 71 Verse 22, Noah says "Wa Makaru Makran Kubara"

I have a very limited knowledge of Arabic but I know that "Wa" means something like "and"

And Kubara is probably related to Kabeer, which means the same thing; ie "great"

And Makaru and Makran mean the same thing as Makireen, except the latter is used in a plural sense

Using the Quran, you can prove what the word Makireen can mean in this context


Salaams & Eid Mubarak IW1,

Yes, you got it almost right. Just a little note:

Wa makaru.....They planned or they made a plot, which in turn can be best described as "they plotted".

Makar Kubbaara... a great plot

In the wonderful and thunderous language of Qur'aan, When adding adjective to a noun Makar, it becomes Makaran-Kubbaara, to rhyme with other verses of Surah Nuh. In normal Arabic usage, it would be Makarun-Kabeer.

Makaru is the verb for using with people, Makaran in the verse is a noun and Kubbaara is the adjective. It is from the word Kabeer, which means Great. Akbar also means the same.

BMZ


Yes Bro, it was pretty easy to tell if you read the Quran a lot with it's Arabic. Arabic was the perfect knowledge for the Quran and the only one suitable for God's message

Realist however thinks otherwise. He thinks that Arabic is a primitive language
Post Posted:
Wed 17 Oct, 2007 2:38 pm
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IntellectualWarfare1 wrote:
BMZ wrote:
IntellectualWarfare1 wrote:
Bro.

Also in Surah Nuh Chapter 71 Verse 22, Noah says "Wa Makaru Makran Kubara"

I have a very limited knowledge of Arabic but I know that "Wa" means something like "and"

And Kubara is probably related to Kabeer, which means the same thing; ie "great"

And Makaru and Makran mean the same thing as Makireen, except the latter is used in a plural sense

Using the Quran, you can prove what the word Makireen can mean in this context


Salaams & Eid Mubarak IW1,

Yes, you got it almost right. Just a little note:

Wa makaru.....They planned or they made a plot, which in turn can be best described as "they plotted".

Makar Kubbaara... a great plot

In the wonderful and thunderous language of Qur'aan, When adding adjective to a noun Makar, it becomes Makaran-Kubbaara, to rhyme with other verses of Surah Nuh. In normal Arabic usage, it would be Makarun-Kabeer.

Makaru is the verb for using with people, Makaran in the verse is a noun and Kubbaara is the adjective. It is from the word Kabeer, which means Great. Akbar also means the same.

BMZ


Yes Bro, it was pretty easy to tell if you read the Quran a lot with it's Arabic. Arabic was the perfect knowledge for the Quran and the only one suitable for God's message

Realist however thinks otherwise. He thinks that Arabic is a primitive language


Dear Bro,

I wouldn't worry about Realist. LOL! He can't tell the difference between a walnut and the peanut. He doesn't know Arabic. Whoever I tested at FFI, turned out to know a few words of market Arabic. LOL!

BMZ
Post Posted:
Wed 17 Oct, 2007 8:44 pm
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AhmedBahgat
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The goons are at kit again:

Always_Faithful wrote:
Ahmed

You've missed the point about what makr means. Makr has nothing to do with the purpose or intent of the person, it is only about how they plan (i.e. using deceit). One can be deceitful for a good purpose (e.g. an undercover cop tricking terrorists into releasing a hostage). However, it is a sign of fallibility when an omnipotent God has to resort to deceit.

All_Brains already addressed the issue of khair.

Salam.


Hello

A_B didn't address the issue of Khair, he is confsed between the words Khair and Ahsan

Also why not you refute these arabic words as they appeared in the Quran:

Inahu La Makr Makartumoh

Under your flawed understanding you need to explain how you can you deceive the deceit, this is because the above Arabic sentence as it appeared in the Quran has to be translated under your flawed non sesne as follow:

It is a deceit that you decieved it

Now, under the proper understanding it should be as follow:

It is a plan that you planned it

That should be enough to slam dunk ya for good along with A_B

Cheers

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Post Posted:
Mon 19 Nov, 2007 1:09 am
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Well done, Ahmed

If they argue any further, just tell them: It is the makr that you makred. LOL! I am really amazed at the insanity of the folks at FFI.

Hey, can you get a nice Rotflmao emoticon?

Salaams
BMZ
Post Posted:
Mon 19 Nov, 2007 2:22 am
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Please read the first comment in this thread:

Here is part 1:

Salam all

Just had my breakfast, I actually love to write a serious Quran comment everyday in Ramadan after I finish breakfast, today I will discuss with you the Arabic word مكر Ma Ka Ra, you should be aware that I only use the Quran to explain itself, I hardly resort to third party materials (for example dictionaries) unless I have to, the subject we have in hand does not need any dictionaries for a start, the Quran should be enough to explain the word مكر Ma Ka Ra

Let me first reply to Baal�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s comment below:

Baal wrote:
Even Cassandra pointed it out that Makr is a synonym to Kheda'a.


The word �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??Even�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?? you used implies that Cassandra is an Arabic language ignorant, do you agree with that?

Now, what Cassandra claimed is nothing but ignorance, there is a huge difference between the word: مكر Ma Ka Ra and the word: خدع Kha Da Aa, the words can not be VIRTUALLY interchangeable UNLESS (One condition):

1) The word مكر Ma Ka Ra, is to plan (for good or bad)
2) The word خدع Kha Da Aa, is to plan (for bad only)

Therefore we can virtually interchange the two words if both means PLAN FOR THE BAD but it is not right to do so.

If the context is to plan for the good then we have to only use the word Ma Ka Ra.

The word Khadaa is the more appropriate word to be used for to deceive, this is because it is only a plan for the bad, most of the ignorant Arabs however can interchange the two words in their day to day discussions regardless, which is a clear act of ignorance on their side

I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m not saying that Allah can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t deceive anyone, in fact I concede that Allah can deceive anyone He wants and He does it the way He wants, this means for me (indirectly) that Allah is the best of deceivers, but this is what I conjecture and say (like you guys), my stand is this, the Quran never said that Allah is the best of deceivers, which should look like this:

الله خير الخادعين , Allah Khair Al Khadieen, i.e. Allah is the best of deceivers, this sentence never appeared in the Quran despite the Quran used the word Kh Da Aa as I will show you at the end of my comment. What appeared in the Quran is this:

الله خير الماكرين , Allah Khair Al Makireen, i.e. Allah is the best of planners, now if it was a plan of the bad then that does not make Allah a deceiver (even though I agree that He might be), this is because Allah action of Makr, was in reply to the Kuffar action of Makr, letÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s have a look (I use Shakir translation as my favourite):

And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.

[The Quran ; 3:54]

وَمَكَرُواْ وَمَكَرَ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ (54)

-> See how the verse started, وَمَكَرُواْ, Wa Makaro, i.e. They planned, and in reply to their plan: وَمَكَرَ اللّهُ , Wa Makar Allah, i.e. Allah also planned, and because we have too parties fighting each other (Allah and the enemy of Allah), i.e. both parties are planning for each other (donÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t forget that Allah plan was in reply to their plan), Allah is telling us that He is going to be the best of all who plan. The verse above never told us what was the plans (is it for the good or for the bad?), we just donÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t know, however and logically speaking, what the enemy of Allah was planning must have been for the bad while surely what Allah plans must be for the good, this is obvious from the use of the word خَيْرُ KHAIR, i.e. SOMETHING THAT IS GOOD, so when Allah says that He is Khair Al Makireen, this means His plans are always going to be for the GOOD, the GOOD from His perspective not from His enemy perspective. The enemy just donÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t know that they are lost souls after selling their souls cheaply to the devil.

The sentence Allah Khair Al Makireen was repeated in another location in the Quran, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s have a look and you should see how the intentions of the enemy of Allah plans were for the bad while Allah still used the word Khair (something that is good) to describe His status of being a planner:

And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.

[The Quran ; 8:30]

وَإِذْ يَمْكُرُ بِكَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ لِيُثْبِتُوكَ أَوْ يَقْتُلُوكَ أَوْ يُخْرِجُوكَ وَيَمْكُرُونَ وَيَمْكُرُ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ (30)

-> We can clearly see the following facts in the above verse:

A) The enemy of Allah were the ones who started planning وَإِذْ يَمْكُرُ بِكَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ , And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you

B) The purpose of their plan was clearly for the bad لِيُثْبِتُوكَ أَوْ يَقْتُلُوكَ أَوْ يُخْرِجُوكَ , that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away , therefore we can interchange the word Kh Da Aa with the Kuffar actions because it was for the bad.

C) Allah replied to their Makr by design a counter plan and again He described His status as the KHAIR of Planners: وَيَمْكُرُونَ وَيَمْكُرُ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ , and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.

Clearly their plans was for the bad while Allah told us that He is the KHAIR of planners. i.e. their action of Makr can be interchanged with Khidaa while Allah reply to them can not be described as such, (THIS IS BECAUSE, HE EVEN TOLD THEM IN ADVANCE THAT THIS IS WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO IN REPLY TO THEIR MAKR)

See you can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t describe anyone as a deceiver while HE IS TELLING YOU EXACTLY WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO IN REPLY TO YOUR DECEPTIVE ACTIONS

Let me show you a few examples from the Quran that explains the use of the word Ma Ka Ra

Firon planned to kill Moses, again his objective of planning is obvio9ulsy bad, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s see how Allah described Firon and his people plans:

So Allah protected him from the evil (consequences) of what they planned, and the most evil punishment overtook Firon's people:

[The Quran ; 40:45]

فَوَقَاهُ اللَّهُ سَيِّئَاتِ مَا مَكَرُوا وَحَاقَ بِآلِ فِرْعَوْنَ سُوءُ الْعَذَابِ (45)

-> See what Allah saved Moses from: فَوَقَاهُ اللَّهُ سَيِّئَاتِ مَا مَكَرُوا , Fa Waqah Allah Saiaat Ma Makaro, ie. So Allah protected him from the evil (consequences) of what they planned , see how the objective of Firon plans was described as Saiaat, i.e. EVIL consequences of his plans, the ward Saiaa (Bad) is actually the opposite of the word Khair (Good), i.e. we can never call Allah a deceiver UNLESS He called Himself as such. And si far He never did

-> What should be noted in 40:45 is this, Allah never said : فَوَقَاهُ اللَّهُ مَا مَكَرُوا Fa Waqah Allah Ma Makaro, i.e. So Allah protected him from what they planned , RATHER He said: فَوَقَاهُ اللَّهُ سَيِّئَاتِ مَا مَكَرُوا Fa Waqah Allah SAIAAT Ma Makaro, ie. So Allah protected him from the evil (consequences) of what they planned , this is because to what I said earlier that Ma Ka Ra can be used to plan for the good as well planning for the bad, and in here Allah is telling us that their plan was for the bad.

In the next verse Allah is talking about the bad people, He used the word Makr twice, and guess what?, because He is talking about those who plan for the bad, He included the word Saia (Bad) with each occurrence of the word Makr, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s have a look:

(In) behaving proudly in the land and in planning evil; and the evil plans shall not beset any save the authors of it. Then should they wait for aught except the way of the former people? For you shall not find any alteration in the course of Allah; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah.

[The Quran ; 35:43]

اسْتِكْبَارًا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَمَكْرَ السَّيِّئِ وَلَا يَحِيقُ الْمَكْرُ السَّيِّئُ إِلَّا بِأَهْلِهِ فَهَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا سُنَّتَ الْأَوَّلِينَ فَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَحْوِيلًا (43)

-> See how those bad people are described: (In) behaving proudly in the land , and what they also do in the land?, وَمَكْرَ السَّيِّئِ , Wa Makr Al Saia, ie. planning evil , now what planning evil should do?, well, here it is: وَلَا يَحِيقُ الْمَكْرُ السَّيِّئُ إِلَّا بِأَهْلِهِ , Wa La Yahiq Al Makr Al Saia Ila Bi Ahlihi, ie. and the evil plans shall not beset any save the authors of it , this is because Allah is always there to counter plan those who plans for the bad (He was there planning to save Jesus when the Jews wanted to kill him, He was there when Ibrahim people wanted to burn Ibrahim, and He was there during Badr battle when the Kuffar wanted to genocide Islam and its followers) the examples of Allah best plans are numerous and all listed in the Quran, nothing is hidden on us, everything is on the open table and when I say everything I mean everything that does not compromise His test to us.

-> See how the verse ended, فَهَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا سُنَّتَ الْأَوَّلِينَ , ie. Then should they wait for aught except the way of the former people? , ironically I have just listed a few examples from those previous people and clearly Allah plan can never be changed, part of that plan that He must always be there to counter plan those who plan for the bad: For you shall not find any alteration in the course of Allah; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah.


Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Wed 23 Apr, 2008 1:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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The following verse confirms what I said all along:

Whoever desires honor, then to Allah belongs the honor wholly. To Him do ascend the good words; and the good deeds, lift them up, and (as for) those who plan evil deeds, they shall have a severe chastisement; and (as for) their plan, it shall perish.

[The Quran ; 35:10]

مَن كَانَ يُرِيدُ الْعِزَّةَ فَلِلَّهِ الْعِزَّةُ جَمِيعًا إِلَيْهِ يَصْعَدُ الْكَلِمُ الطَّيِّبُ وَالْعَمَلُ الصَّالِحُ يَرْفَعُهُ وَالَّذِينَ يَمْكُرُونَ السَّيِّئَاتِ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ وَمَكْرُ أُوْلَئِكَ هُوَ يَبُورُ (10)

-> See, Allah is talking about those who do good and those who do bad, what I want you to look at is how those who do bad are described: وَالَّذِينَ يَمْكُرُونَ السَّيِّئَاتِ , Wa Alazeen Yamkroon Al Saiaat, ie. and (as for) those who plan evil deeds , can you see how the word Saiaat (Bad) is again associated with their plans. LetÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s now see how the verse ended: لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ وَمَكْرُ أُوْلَئِكَ هُوَ يَبُورُ , i.e. for those who plan for the bad: they shall have a severe chastisement; and (as for) their plan, it shall perish. , again they will perish because Allah is always their to counter plan their evil plans with His good plans, this is the course of Allah; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah. as stated in 35:43

Again, the same exact thing said about those who plan for the bad:

Do they then who plan evil (deeds) feel secure (of this) that Allah will not cause the earth to swallow them or that punishment may not overtake them from whence they do not perceive?

[The Quran ; 16:45]

أَفَأَمِنَ الَّذِينَ مَكَرُواْ السَّيِّئَاتِ أَن يَخْسِفَ اللّهُ بِهِمُ الأَرْضَ أَوْ يَأْتِيَهُمُ الْعَذَابُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لاَ يَشْعُرُونَ (45)

-> See, الَّذِينَ مَكَرُواْ السَّيِّئَاتِ Alazeen Makaro Al Saiaat, ie. who plan evil , ie. there are those who plan good (khair), Allah told us about ONE AT LEAST, who is HIM, letÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s have another look (just in case you forgot):
-> ُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ Wa Allah Khair Al Makireen, i.e. Allah is the best of planners, 3:54 & 8:30


An important fact that the boys and girls turn a blind boys and girls on FFI ignore is this, if you are going to tell us about an act of deception then you need to tell us: who deceived whom?, for example: A deceived B, in all the examples of the Quran use of the word Ma Ka Ra we were never told about B, i.e. whatever was said above so far can never be described as an act of deception (logically speaking) this is because we were never told about whom who was deceived, this irrefutable logic will become clearer as you read the rest of the verses:

In the next example we were only informed that the Kuffar we doing the act of Makr, if it is an act of deception then we must be informed with the party that is being deceived:

This is of the announcements relating to the unseen (which) We reveal to you, and you were not with them when they resolved upon their affair, and they were devising plans.

[The Quran ; 12:102]

ذَلِكَ مِنْ أَنبَاء الْغَيْبِ نُوحِيهِ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا كُنتَ لَدَيْهِمْ إِذْ أَجْمَعُواْ أَمْرَهُمْ وَهُمْ يَمْكُرُونَ (102)

-> See how the verse ended: وَهُمْ يَمْكُرُونَ Wa Hum Yamkroon, and they were devising plans., devising plans is the only logical context because if they were deceiving then we must be informed with whom they were deceiving

The next example is another compelling proof that the word Ma Ka Ra must mean to plan:

Firon said: Do you believe in Him before I have given you permission? Surely this is a plot which you have secretly devised in this city, that you may turn out of it its people, but you shall know:

[The Quran ; 7:123]

قَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ آمَنتُم بِهِ قَبْلَ أَن آذَنَ لَكُمْ إِنَّ هَذَا لَمَكْرٌ مَّكَرْتُمُوهُ فِي الْمَدِينَةِ لِتُخْرِجُواْ مِنْهَا أَهْلَهَا فَسَوْفَ تَعْلَمُونَ (123)

-> The verse above is about what Firon said to the magicians when they believed in Moses, see what he told them: لَمَكْرٌ مَّكَرْتُمُوهُ La Makr MakartumoHU, i.e. a plot which you have devised, now if you try to interchange it with the meaning of deceive then we will have a serious logical problem, see the HU that I highlighted in the word MakartumoHU, this is a DAMIR that is referring to the plot, i.e. they planned a plot, now I have to ask anyone with a brain, can you logically say , you deceive the deception?

Of course not, i.e. Ma Ka Ra means to plan


Let me now show you a couple of example to the Quran use of the word خدع Ka Da Aa, which explicitly means to deceive, we should expect that the party that is being deceived must be stated:

They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.

[The Quran ; 2:9]

يُخَادِعُونَ اللّهَ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَمَا يَخْدَعُونَ إِلاَّ أَنفُسَهُم وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ (9)

-> See how clear it is, the word used is Kha Da Aa and is correctly translated by Shakir as to deceive and above we are told that those who claim to believe in Allah and the last day while they are not really believers are DECEIVING Allah and Those who believe: يُخَادِعُونَ اللّهَ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا , Yakhadioon Allah Wa Alazeen Amanu, i.e. They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe , see how the parties being deceived were mentioned (Allah and those who believe), and again, Allah told us that those deceivers are only deceiving THEMSELVES: وَمَا يَخْدَعُونَ إِلاَّ أَنفُسَهُم Wa Ma Yakhdaoon Ila Anfusahum, i.e. and they deceive only themselves, ie. we are informed with the party being deceived (themselves)

Here is another example to the word Kh Da Aa which means to deceive:

Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah, and He shall requite their deceit to them, and when they stand up to prayer they stand up sluggishly; they do it only to be seen of men and do not remember Allah save a little.

[The Quran ; 4:142]

إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ يُخَادِعُونَ اللّهَ وَهُوَ خَادِعُهُمْ وَإِذَا قَامُواْ إِلَى الصَّلاَةِ قَامُواْ كُسَالَى يُرَآؤُونَ النَّاسَ وَلاَ يَذْكُرُونَ اللّهَ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً (142)

-> The verse above is talking about the hypocrite who are deceiving Allah, again we are informed with the party being deceived (Allah): يُخَادِعُونَ اللّهَ Yakhadioon Allah, ie. They deceive Allah, then Allah is telling us the outcome that He will be the one to deceive them وَهُوَ خَادِعُهُمْ Wa Hwa KhadiHUM, ie. and He shall requite their deceit to them as translated by Shakir, which may not be entirely accurate but acceptable, again we are informed with the party being deceived which is the DAMIR HUM in the word KhadiHUM, ie. (Them), this is the only verse in the Quran that Allah have described Himself to be deceiving someone, THAT SOMEONE IS BEING DECRIBED IN THE SAME VERSE AS FOLLOW:

1) A hypocrite
2) The one who deceive Allah

Again the course of Allah that can never be changed that the deceit of such bad people must be turned back on them and only Allah can do that because He is the only one who know the deceiver from the truthful



From all the above, it is clear to conclude the followings:

1) Ma Ka Ra can mean to plan for the good or plan for the bad

2) Kha Da Aa can only mean to plan for the bad (deceive) and in this case we must be informed with the party or parties being deceived

3) Allah told us that He is the best (Khair) Al Makireen, i.e. the best of planners, i.e. He always there to plan for the good, and only Him (not us) can know which is good and which is bad from His perspective (it is not our business)

4) The word Ma Ka Ra needs the bad intention to be mentioned to conclusively mean to deceive and in that case it can be virtually interchanged with the word Kha Da Aa but yet not correct to do so because when you describe and act of deception you need to tell who is being deceived

5) Allah never described Himself as the best (Khair) of Khadieen, this is because it is logically incorrect, ie, you can not use the word Khair with the word Kh Da Aa, because Kha Da Aa always mean to plan for the bad contrary to what Khair means which is good

6) Allah only used the action of Kha Da Aa ONCE (2:142) and it was in reply to those hypocrites who are trying to deceive Him, in a way it is under our own laws has to be classified as self defence

7) The word Khair (good) can be used with Ma Ka Ra because Ma Ka Ra also mean to plan for the good


The above is irrefutable as far as I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m concerned however I will only consider the smartest of comments, the rest will be dismissed, sorry I have no time for a ping pong game especially when Cassandra is part of the discussion

Baal wrote:
Allah is the best Mukhadi'.


You are a liar and as confused as Cassandra is

Firstly Allah said He is the best of Makireen and I showed you the Quran use of the word, I don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t give a fluke to what ignorant cassy who is a xlear cut enemy of Islam says, if you can refute the above using the Arabic Quran, be my guest

Baal wrote:
And Mr.Muhammad is the best Mufaketh (Thigher).


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Salam all

Sanitarium is a nice lady from Australia who is also a member of Free Islam, the only problem I have with her that she hates Islam really bad, I knew her first from www.faithfreedom.org

We had a few fights and even personal discussions, she tells me that she is not after Islam rather she is after knowledge, which I see as nothing but a clear cut lie, she joins many forum to keep repeating her crap despite that I clearly slam dunked such crap while she never refuted them, this thread is a clear example of such, the ignorant kafirs keep repeating their crap that the Quran said that Allah is the best deceiver, and as you can read in this thread that I totally demolished such non sense.

Yesterday I found out that Sani has joined another forum repeating the same crap ( http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/islam/TNMPDBOB7151KU2I9 ), so I had to also join and reply to her:


Sanitarium wrote:
Ahmed!!!!!!! How cool to see you here!


Cool

Sanitarium wrote:
Yes, I know you Ahmed, contend that Makr means "planner",


Makr (as a noun) means Plan
Makir (as a noun) means Planner
Makar (as a verb) means to plan

Sanitarium wrote:
it seems Muslims cannot agree on this.


I have never seen a knowledgeable Muslim who says otherwise to what I said

Sanitarium wrote:
In the article i linked to, I quote from Jamal Badawi


Who the hell is jamal badwai?

if he is a freak, then he can say what he wants, what matters at the end of the day is what the Quran says, not what the people says, see this verse:

8:30 واذ يمكر بك الذين كفروا ليثبتوك او يقتلوك او يخرجوك ويمكرون ويمكر الله والله خير الماكرين


Now, forget my translation, see what those popular three translators, said:

Pickthal:
8:30 And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters.

Y A:
8:30 Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah.

Shakir:
8:30 And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.

As you can see NONE translated it as your wishful thinking is inciting you. So, why you reckon they did not translate it as you want it to be?

The answer is really simple, you cannot deceive a person to do any of the following:

Stun him
Kill him
Expel him

What you can do however is to plan for that perosn to:

Stun him
Kill him
Expel him

See how the Quran exposes the stupidity of the goons and their Barbie arguments

Sanitarium wrote:
who says we only say it means "planner" only when referring to Allah and it is out of reverence; but for everyone else it means conspirator LOL


But the verses above are not referring to Allah, rather it referes to the kafirs who were planning against the prophet to:

Stun him
Kill him
Expel him

Be honest with yourself dear Sani, your internet campaign against Islam is not going to work, this is because you have never came with a solid argument using your own mind, rather parroting the same outdated crap that only expose the animosity of the kafirs

Salam

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Salam all

Here is another Quran example that again exposes the ignorance of the kafirs when they keep parroting such crap about the Arabic word Ma Ka Ra

See this verse:

16:127 واصبر وما صبرك الا بالله ولا تحزن عليهم ولا تك في ضيق مما يمكرون


Pickthal:
16:127 Endure thou patiently (O Muhammad). Thine endurance is only by (the help of) Allah. Grieve not for them, and be not in distress because of that which they devise.

Y. A.:
16:127 And do thou be patient, for thy patience is but from Allah; nor grieve over them: and distress not thyself because of their plots.

Shakir:
16:127 And be patient and your patience is not but by (the assistance of) Allah, and grieve not for them, and do not distress yourself at what they plan.


See again how all translators above translated the word correctly. There is also a logical point in the above verse,

Person A may know in advance that person B is planning for him

But I found it hard to believe that person A may know in advace that person B is deceiving him

See in the above verse, Allah it telling Muhammed: ولا تك في ضيق مما يمكرون , i.e. and do not distress yourself at what they plan, WHICH CERTAINLY MEANS that Muhammed knew in advance of their plan, UNLIKE THE LOGICAL FACT that a person cannot know in advance that another person is deceiving him

Also, you cannot say to a person in advance that I am deceiving you, and as we can clearly read in the Quran that Allah is telling the kafirs in advance, that He is Yamkur for them, i.e. He is planning for them.

Salam

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AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam all

Sanitarium is a nice lady from Australia who is also a member of Free Islam, the only problem I have with her that she hates Islam really bad, I knew her first from www.faithfreedom.org

We had a few fights and even personal discussions, she tells me that she is not after Islam rather she is after knowledge, which I see as nothing but a clear cut lie, she joins many forum to keep repeating her crap despite that I clearly slam dunked such crap while she never refuted them, this thread is a clear example of such, the ignorant kafirs keep repeating their crap that the Quran said that Allah is the best deceiver, and as you can read in this thread that I totally demolished such non sense.

Yesterday I found out that Sani has joined another forum repeating the same crap ( http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/islam/TNMPDBOB7151KU2I9 ), so I had to also join and reply to her:


Sanitarium wrote:
Ahmed!!!!!!! How cool to see you here!


Cool

Sanitarium wrote:
Yes, I know you Ahmed, contend that Makr means "planner",


Makr (as a noun) means Plan
Makir (as a noun) means Planner
Makar (as a verb) means to plan

Sanitarium wrote:
it seems Muslims cannot agree on this.


I have never seen a knowledgeable Muslim who says otherwise to what I said

Sanitarium wrote:
In the article i linked to, I quote from Jamal Badawi


Who the hell is jamal badwai?

if he is a freak, then he can say what he wants, what matters at the end of the day is what the Quran says, not what the people says, see this verse:

8:30 واذ يمكر بك الذين كفروا ليثبتوك او يقتلوك او يخرجوك ويمكرون ويمكر الله والله خير الماكرين


Now, forget my translation, see what those popular three translators, said:

Pickthal:
8:30 And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters.

Y A:
8:30 Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah.

Shakir:
8:30 And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.

As you can see NONE translated it as your wishful thinking is inciting you. So, why you reckon they did not translate it as you want it to be?

The answer is really simple, you cannot deceive a person to do any of the following:

Stun him
Kill him
Expel him

What you can do however is to plan for that perosn to:

Stun him
Kill him
Expel him

See how the Quran exposes the stupidity of the goons and their Barbie arguments

Sanitarium wrote:
who says we only say it means "planner" only when referring to Allah and it is out of reverence; but for everyone else it means conspirator LOL


But the verses above are not referring to Allah, rather it referes to the kafirs who were planning against the prophet to:

Stun him
Kill him
Expel him

Be honest with yourself dear Sani, your internet campaign against Islam is not going to work, this is because you have never came with a solid argument using your own mind, rather parroting the same outdated crap that only expose the animosity of the kafirs

Salam


I was glad to see you at Topix Forums, Ahmed

If I had been discussing with Sani at FFI or any other Christian forum, I would have been banned fast, to save Sani and the Board from further embarassment.

I am amazed at the ignorance and also at the deceptive writing by Sani.

The lady is really a hate-bag. It is no use being nice to her.

Salaams
BMZ
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
Please read the first comment in this thread:

Here is part 1:

Salam all

Just had my breakfast, I actually love to write a serious Quran comment everyday in Ramadan after I finish breakfast, today I will discuss with you the Arabic word مكر Ma Ka Ra, you should be aware that I only use the Quran to explain itself, I hardly resort to third party materials (for example dictionaries) unless I have to, the subject we have in hand does not need any dictionaries for a start, the Quran should be enough to explain the word مكر Ma Ka Ra

Let me first reply to Baal�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s comment below:

Baal wrote:
Even Cassandra pointed it out that Makr is a synonym to Kheda'a.


The word �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??Even�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?? you used implies that Cassandra is an Arabic language ignorant, do you agree with that?

Now, what Cassandra claimed is nothing but ignorance, there is a huge difference between the word: مكر Ma Ka Ra and the word: خدع Kha Da Aa, the words can not be VIRTUALLY interchangeable UNLESS (One condition):

1) The word مكر Ma Ka Ra, is to plan (for good or bad)
2) The word خدع Kha Da Aa, is to plan (for bad only)

Therefore we can virtually interchange the two words if both means PLAN FOR THE BAD but it is not right to do so.

If the context is to plan for the good then we have to only use the word Ma Ka Ra.

The word Khadaa is the more appropriate word to be used for to deceive, this is because it is only a plan for the bad, most of the ignorant Arabs however can interchange the two words in their day to day discussions regardless, which is a clear act of ignorance on their side

I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m not saying that Allah can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t deceive anyone, in fact I concede that Allah can deceive anyone He wants and He does it the way He wants, this means for me (indirectly) that Allah is the best of deceivers, but this is what I conjecture and say (like you guys), my stand is this, the Quran never said that Allah is the best of deceivers, which should look like this:

الله خير الخادعين , Allah Khair Al Khadieen, i.e. Allah is the best of deceivers, this sentence never appeared in the Quran despite the Quran used the word Kh Da Aa as I will show you at the end of my comment. What appeared in the Quran is this:

الله خير الماكرين , Allah Khair Al Makireen, i.e. Allah is the best of planners, now if it was a plan of the bad then that does not make Allah a deceiver (even though I agree that He might be), this is because Allah action of Makr, was in reply to the Kuffar action of Makr, letÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s have a look (I use Shakir translation as my favourite):

And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.

[The Quran ; 3:54]

وَمَكَرُواْ وَمَكَرَ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ (54)

-> See how the verse started, وَمَكَرُواْ, Wa Makaro, i.e. They planned, and in reply to their plan: وَمَكَرَ اللّهُ , Wa Makar Allah, i.e. Allah also planned, and because we have too parties fighting each other (Allah and the enemy of Allah), i.e. both parties are planning for each other (donÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t forget that Allah plan was in reply to their plan), Allah is telling us that He is going to be the best of all who plan. The verse above never told us what was the plans (is it for the good or for the bad?), we just donÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t know, however and logically speaking, what the enemy of Allah was planning must have been for the bad while surely what Allah plans must be for the good, this is obvious from the use of the word خَيْرُ KHAIR, i.e. SOMETHING THAT IS GOOD, so when Allah says that He is Khair Al Makireen, this means His plans are always going to be for the GOOD, the GOOD from His perspective not from His enemy perspective. The enemy just donÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t know that they are lost souls after selling their souls cheaply to the devil.

The sentence Allah Khair Al Makireen was repeated in another location in the Quran, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s have a look and you should see how the intentions of the enemy of Allah plans were for the bad while Allah still used the word Khair (something that is good) to describe His status of being a planner:

And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.

[The Quran ; 8:30]

وَإِذْ يَمْكُرُ بِكَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ لِيُثْبِتُوكَ أَوْ يَقْتُلُوكَ أَوْ يُخْرِجُوكَ وَيَمْكُرُونَ وَيَمْكُرُ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ (30)

-> We can clearly see the following facts in the above verse:

A) The enemy of Allah were the ones who started planning وَإِذْ يَمْكُرُ بِكَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ , And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you

B) The purpose of their plan was clearly for the bad لِيُثْبِتُوكَ أَوْ يَقْتُلُوكَ أَوْ يُخْرِجُوكَ , that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away , therefore we can interchange the word Kh Da Aa with the Kuffar actions because it was for the bad.

C) Allah replied to their Makr by design a counter plan and again He described His status as the KHAIR of Planners: وَيَمْكُرُونَ وَيَمْكُرُ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ , and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.

Clearly their plans was for the bad while Allah told us that He is the KHAIR of planners. i.e. their action of Makr can be interchanged with Khidaa while Allah reply to them can not be described as such, (THIS IS BECAUSE, HE EVEN TOLD THEM IN ADVANCE THAT THIS IS WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO IN REPLY TO THEIR MAKR)

See you can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t describe anyone as a deceiver while HE IS TELLING YOU EXACTLY WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO IN REPLY TO YOUR DECEPTIVE ACTIONS

Let me show you a few examples from the Quran that explains the use of the word Ma Ka Ra

Firon planned to kill Moses, again his objective of planning is obvio9ulsy bad, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s see how Allah described Firon and his people plans:

So Allah protected him from the evil (consequences) of what they planned, and the most evil punishment overtook Firon's people:

[The Quran ; 40:45]

فَوَقَاهُ اللَّهُ سَيِّئَاتِ مَا مَكَرُوا وَحَاقَ بِآلِ فِرْعَوْنَ سُوءُ الْعَذَابِ (45)

-> See what Allah saved Moses from: فَوَقَاهُ اللَّهُ سَيِّئَاتِ مَا مَكَرُوا , Fa Waqah Allah Saiaat Ma Makaro, ie. So Allah protected him from the evil (consequences) of what they planned , see how the objective of Firon plans was described as Saiaat, i.e. EVIL consequences of his plans, the ward Saiaa (Bad) is actually the opposite of the word Khair (Good), i.e. we can never call Allah a deceiver UNLESS He called Himself as such. And si far He never did

-> What should be noted in 40:45 is this, Allah never said : فَوَقَاهُ اللَّهُ مَا مَكَرُوا Fa Waqah Allah Ma Makaro, i.e. So Allah protected him from what they planned , RATHER He said: فَوَقَاهُ اللَّهُ سَيِّئَاتِ مَا مَكَرُوا Fa Waqah Allah SAIAAT Ma Makaro, ie. So Allah protected him from the evil (consequences) of what they planned , this is because to what I said earlier that Ma Ka Ra can be used to plan for the good as well planning for the bad, and in here Allah is telling us that their plan was for the bad.

In the next verse Allah is talking about the bad people, He used the word Makr twice, and guess what?, because He is talking about those who plan for the bad, He included the word Saia (Bad) with each occurrence of the word Makr, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s have a look:

(In) behaving proudly in the land and in planning evil; and the evil plans shall not beset any save the authors of it. Then should they wait for aught except the way of the former people? For you shall not find any alteration in the course of Allah; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah.

[The Quran ; 35:43]

اسْتِكْبَارًا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَمَكْرَ السَّيِّئِ وَلَا يَحِيقُ الْمَكْرُ السَّيِّئُ إِلَّا بِأَهْلِهِ فَهَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا سُنَّتَ الْأَوَّلِينَ فَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَحْوِيلًا (43)

-> See how those bad people are described: (In) behaving proudly in the land , and what they also do in the land?, وَمَكْرَ السَّيِّئِ , Wa Makr Al Saia, ie. planning evil , now what planning evil should do?, well, here it is: وَلَا يَحِيقُ الْمَكْرُ السَّيِّئُ إِلَّا بِأَهْلِهِ , Wa La Yahiq Al Makr Al Saia Ila Bi Ahlihi, ie. and the evil plans shall not beset any save the authors of it , this is because Allah is always there to counter plan those who plans for the bad (He was there planning to save Jesus when the Jews wanted to kill him, He was there when Ibrahim people wanted to burn Ibrahim, and He was there during Badr battle when the Kuffar wanted to genocide Islam and its followers) the examples of Allah best plans are numerous and all listed in the Quran, nothing is hidden on us, everything is on the open table and when I say everything I mean everything that does not compromise His test to us.

-> See how the verse ended, فَهَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا سُنَّتَ الْأَوَّلِينَ , ie. Then should they wait for aught except the way of the former people? , ironically I have just listed a few examples from those previous people and clearly Allah plan can never be changed, part of that plan that He must always be there to counter plan those who plan for the bad: For you shall not find any alteration in the course of Allah; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah.


wow bro Ahmad ! that's amazing ...

nowhere else do i find the explanations ...

the way i find them here, masha-Allah



I salute the free-islam team for unveiling the truth ...

like no one else on the world wide web ... Cool



Regards,
муxтιc
Post Posted:
Fri 31 Jul, 2009 3:55 am
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