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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Are the inheritance laws in the Quran fair? Reply with quote  

Salam borthers and sisters

I received a question regarding the inheritance laws in the Quran and would like to share my answer with you:

Quote:
2. What's your take on the inheritance laws in the Quran? Do not they seem unfair to you?


Well, what you think and I think to be fair is irrelevant when it comes to Allah, in fact this is exactly what He told us in the inheritance verses, let me show you:

Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

[The Quran ; 4:11]

يُوصِيكُمُ اللّهُ فِي أَوْلاَدِكُمْ لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ فَإِن كُنَّ نِسَاء فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانَتْ وَاحِدَةً فَلَهَا النِّصْفُ وَلأَبَوَيْهِ لِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ مِمَّا تَرَكَ إِن كَانَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ فَلأُمِّهِ الثُّلُثُ فَإِن كَانَ لَهُ إِخْوَةٌ فَلأُمِّهِ السُّدُسُ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصِي بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ آبَآؤُكُمْ وَأَبناؤُكُمْ لاَ تَدْرُونَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ لَكُمْ نَفْعاً فَرِيضَةً مِّنَ اللّهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيما حَكِيمًا (11)


-> As you can see above the verse started by specifying which people should inherit and how much they should inherit: Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children,, and as you can see the first two words: Allah enjoins you, i.e. it is an order from Allah, now we can despite, argue or question Him to why He wants it such way, this is because we don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t know which is nearer in usefulness: you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness, SEE, HOW COMEPLLING IS THAT?, i.e. we should not ask why Allah wants it this way because we don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t know which one of those people is nearer to us in usefulness, therefore giving the son twice as the daughter can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t be classified as unfair IN THE EYES OF ALLAH, and that is what matter because it is A COMMAND FROM ALLAH TO US, as the verse stated at its beginning: Allah enjoins you, then again Allah stressed that it is an ORDER from Him after He told us that we don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t know which one of these people is nearer to us in usefulness: this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise., most certainly He knows and we don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t, the usefulness here is not for the deceased because the deceased is DEAD as you know, it is usefulness to themselves (the opnes who will inherit)

Salam

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Post Posted:
Wed 28 Nov, 2007 8:59 pm
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Post subject: Re: Are the inheritance laws in the Quran fair? Reply with quote  

Yes, Ahmed, the laws of inheritance in Qur'aan are very fair. Everyone gets a share.

It was a common practise among Arabs before the advent of Islam that the son would normally get all the wealth of his father. If the son died and his father was alive, the father would get all his wealth. If a man died and had more sons, it would be upto the eldest son to give what he liked, to the other brother/s. Women had no right. If a man died, had no son/sons or adult sons, then his brother or the nearest relative could have all his wealth including his wife, daughters and young sons, if any. The wealth went to the strongest and the most powerful in the family. Under the cover of looking after a man's wife and daughters, the man would usurp the wealth of the deadman's wife and the orphans. Even the woman and the daughters became his property. Only a married daughter, left behind by a wealthy man, could have her father's wealth. If she were not married, another nearest relative could grab her wealth. Islam stopped all that unfair practice.

That unfair practice was stopped in Islam, when the law of distribution of wealth, for a deceased person, was ordained. Everyone was given a share.

The most striking part is what you have mentioned, including the translation and I have been explaining to people that

آبَآؤُكُمْ وَأَبناؤُكُمْ لاَ تَدْرُونَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ لَكُمْ نَفْعاً فَرِيضَةً مِّنَ اللّهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيما حَكِيمًا (11

means when explained properly:

Of your parents and your children, you would not know who among your nearest ones, will be the best for you and the most sincere to you in looking after your interests and those you left behind. Allah, who is fully aware of what happens, gives the best advice to give a share to each in the family.

Regarding the part of the verse أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ لَكُمْ نَفْعاً , when literally translated it means "Which one of them will be profitable for you." You have rightfully used the word "Useful" which is a better word for the English translation. In the Arabic of Qur'aan, it simply means what I wrote in the explanatory meanings.

Salaams
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Sun 02 Dec, 2007 2:51 pm
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Mutley wrote:
This is a respectable, high brow, honorable challenge to the respected Islamic scholar, Ahmed Bahgat who also happens to be in the process of rewriting the Quran, and developing an English translation of it that meets his needs


Mute

What a load of crap you just spewed above, I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m NOT re-writing the Quran you fool, I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m only translating it, look what you said Mute: Ahmed Bahgat who also happens to be in the process of rewriting the Quran, and developing an English translation of it that meets his needs

That sounds like two tasks to me, while I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m doing only one, so stop being shifty and manipulative or I will dismiss ya in the rubbish bin as you know very well.

Also, I don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t translate the Quran to suit my needs you freak, I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m only doing it because there is NON that is accurate and I want to help those non Arabic speakers, so STFU and only concentrate on the 1 on 1 debate and stop acting like a filthy whore.

Mutley wrote:
We shall debate about the inheritance rules. We will stick strictly to the Quran, as said respected scholar, mentioned above, always demands.


Scholarship has nothing to do with it, we are only looking at the Quran words, however I agree that the task is taunting to you, you didn�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t study Arabic nor you speak it, right?

Mutley wrote:
The challenge is to add up the scenario of the following, and nothing more than the following, of two daughters, two parents and one wife.


Ok

Mutley wrote:
That's it. Other than the general public, there are no other inheritors. To do this, one must use Quran 4:11, 4:12, and 4:176,


Wrong,

4:176 is only talking about the Kalalah, i.e. those who died and left no parents nor any children, only brothers and sisters left, but the example given by you clearly includes children (two daughters) and the parents, here is what you said you fool: the following, of two daughters, two parents and one wife.

That should say it all, that you don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t know what the hell you are talking about.

Mutley wrote:
as I believe this is a fair offer and the only Quran verses that deal with this issue.


Ignorant, 4:176 has nothing to do with your example, here is why again:

4:176 is only talking about the Kalalah, i.e. those who died and left no parents nor any children, only brothers and sisters left, but the example given by you clearly includes children (two daughters) and parents.

Mutley wrote:
Ahmed Bahgat is allowed to refute everything I say for as many times as he wants and as long as he wants (and of course, I'm allowed to answer back)


What a loser

I do have a life mister Mute

Here is how the game will be played by us:

1) You raise the argument
2) I refute once
3) You reply once
4) I reply once

And by that, he Game should be Over, and left to the judges from the public

Mutley wrote:
Fair challenge?


Here is what is not fair, if you attack me or mock me as you did in your intro, by saying manipulated lies about me like your crap that I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m re-writing the Quran and translating it to suit my needs, I will mock you harder and will have absolute right to terminate the discussion at any point onwards, however because you didn�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t know that, I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m not going to do it in this thread, but you should know that if you continue doing so in this thread, I will reply with an iron hand then dismiss ya.

Mutley wrote:
How could it not be any more fair?


To only concentrate on the argument in hand, personal defamation won�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t be tolerated, however if you catch me saying something dumb that is based on ignorance in relation to the argument in hand then it is ok to call me dumb, stupid, etc etc, as I did with you above (4:176), that was so dumb by you, do you know what Kalalah means?

Let me now reply to your puzzle:

We have a man who died and left the following:

1) Two daughters
2) Two Parents
3) One wife

Let me bring the three verses you mentioned, I know that 4:176 does not apply as I stated, however I have to bring it because I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m going to use it regarding my VOCABULARY and GRAMMAR refute that I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m sure you never heard of it before, this is because most Muslims got 4:11 wrong, let me explain further, (the translation provided is Free-Islam proposed translation which is in the making:

11: Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have a portion of the two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have one-third of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the one-sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the one-third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the one-sixth after a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is all-Knowing, all-Wise.

12: And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child, but if they have a child, then you shall have a one-fourth of what they leave after any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and they shall have the one-fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child then they shall have the one-eighth of what you leave after a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt; and if a man or a woman leaves property to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the one-sixth, but if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the one-third after any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt that does not harm; this is an ordinance from Allah: and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.

[The Quran ; 4:11-12]

يُوصِيكُمُ اللّهُ فِي أَوْلاَدِكُمْ لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ فَإِن كُنَّ نِسَاء فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانَتْ وَاحِدَةً فَلَهَا النِّصْفُ وَلأَبَوَيْهِ لِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ مِمَّا تَرَكَ إِن كَانَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ فَلأُمِّهِ الثُّلُثُ فَإِن كَانَ لَهُ إِخْوَةٌ فَلأُمِّهِ السُّدُسُ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصِي بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ آبَآؤُكُمْ وَأَبناؤُكُمْ لاَ تَدْرُونَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ لَكُمْ نَفْعاً فَرِيضَةً مِّنَ اللّهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيما حَكِيمًا (11)

وَلَكُمْ نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ أَزْوَاجُكُمْ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُنَّ وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَ لَهُنَّ وَلَدٌ فَلَكُمُ الرُّبُعُ مِمَّا تَرَكْنَ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصِينَ بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ وَلَهُنَّ الرُّبُعُ مِمَّا تَرَكْتُمْ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّكُمْ وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَ لَكُمْ وَلَدٌ فَلَهُنَّ الثُّمُنُ مِمَّا تَرَكْتُم مِّن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ تُوصُونَ بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ وَإِن كَانَ رَجُلٌ يُورَثُ كَلاَلَةً أَو امْرَأَةٌ وَلَهُ أَخٌ أَوْ أُخْتٌ فَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ فَإِن كَانُوَاْ أَكْثَرَ مِن ذَلِكَ فَهُمْ شُرَكَاء فِي الثُّلُثِ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصَى بِهَآ أَوْ دَيْنٍ غَيْرَ مُضَآرٍّ وَصِيَّةً مِّنَ اللّهِ وَاللّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَلِيمٌ (12)

-> Many Muslims if not all understood 4:11 wrong, this is because they took the Arabic word Thultha ثُلُثَا to mean 2 x one-third, i.e. dual form of Thulth ثُلُثَ , they thought that the Alif (highlighted in red and underlined) that is added at the end of the singular word Thulth caused it to be dual, the problem here that if they want it DUAL then it should be: Thulthan ثُّلُثَانِ ,

This is going to be very deep explanation and is not for the faint hearted who lack solid Arabic grammar, but let me at least try to clear your and their ignorance:

Firstly, let me explain this:

Any Arabic noun must end with any of the following vowels DEPENDING ON something called Irab, I don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t know how to translate Irab however I can explain it, it is to identify the grammatical position of each word within the sentence to find out which vowel should be used at the end of the word.

The most common and widely used vowels in Arabic are as follow:

1) Dummah (oooooo)
2) Fatiha (aaaaaa)
3) Kasira (eeeeee)
4) Sikoon (nothing) �?????�????�???�??�?�¢?? therefore I will ignore this one

In many cases we canÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t use the above vowels, a case is the dual word which must end with AN or AYN, for example Madrastan, or Madrasatayn, both words means two schools, this is how they look in Arabic مدرستان, مدرستين

Let me explain how the dual of the word Thulth ثُلُثَ which means one-third should be and its position in Irab as it appeared in 4:11,

The dual form of it must end with AN, i.e. Thulthan ثُّلُثَانِ which means two-thirds, you can see the word clearly used as such in 4:176

Now we have two possible words (singualr and dual) that we may need to apply the above vowels to them:

1) The first word : Thulth ثُلُثَ which means one-third

We have two possibilities:

A) The word includes the Al, Al Thulth الثُّلُثُ which means the one-third
B) The word does not include the Al Thulth ثُلُثَ which means one-third

In the first case (A) the vowel marks (the Dummah, Fatiha or Kasirah), are just added to the last letter (no letters added to the main word), the word letters MUST stay the same, and just apply the possible vowels with the mouth and not in writing, so it will be pronounced as follow:

i) Al Thultha الثُّلُثَ , as you can see the word letters stayed the same and only a Fatiha is added to the last letter (the Fatiha is the small dash above the last letter

ii) Al Thultho الثُّلُثُ , as you can see the word letters stayed the same and only a Dummah is added to the last letter, The dummah is the small waw above the last letter

iii) Al Thulthe الثُّلُثِ , as you can see the word letters stayed the same and only a Kasirah is added to the last letter, the kasirah is the small dash under the last letter

In the second case (B), where there is no Al, I.e. Thulth ثُلُثَ which means one-third, the word may be voweled as the word with an Al, however with the case of Rafi by Dummah it may be voweled by adding an Alif at the end and by using something called Dummah Muqaddarh, i.e. Assumed Dummah, the reason for that is to make the pronunciation simple on the tongue. Now before I move to the dual of the word let me show you the example of its singular form as it appeared twice in 4:11:

X) فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ , Falahunna Thultha Ma Tarak, in here the Irab of the singular word Thultha is Mubtadda, and every Mubtadda must be voweled by Dummah (oooooo) however, because the word does not have the Al (The) then we can vowel it by adding the letter Alif at the end then assume that there is a Dummah at the last letter (Dummah Muqaddarah) i.e. Assumed Dummah

The proper understanding and translation to the above should be:

Then they should get one-third of what the deceased left

XX) فَلأُمِّهِ الثُّلُثُ in here the Irab of the singular word Al Thulth is Mubtadda also, and every Mubtadda must be voweled by Dummah (oooooo) however, because the word does have the Al (The) then we have to vowel it by adding real Dummah at the last letter and that is NOT Dummah Muqaddarh.

There should be no confusion regarding translating the above because no letters were added to the word, so it should be:

Then for his mother, the one-third

Let me now discuss the dual form and you should see for yourself that the dual form of any word which should e ending by AN, must be oooooo voweled by Thiboot Al Noon, i.e. the last letter N (Noon) CAN NOT BE OMMITTED, and that is what caused the confusion for those dumb who didn�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t bloody study the Arabic grammar from A to Z, when they thought that there is an omitted Noon in such word as it appeared in 4:11, i.e. for them, the word Thultha with an Alif at the end in 4:11, should be Thulthan, i.e two-thirds and the Noon is omitted due to the Irab, the Quran exposes their ignorance fair and square, let me prove it to you using 4:176 where the dual form of the word, which is Thulthan appeared:

Again, 4:176 is irrelevant to the discussion of the inheritance distribution to the example you have given, because 4:176 is only talking about a condition called Kalalah, i.e. those who died and left no children nor parents, just brothers and sisters left:

They ask you. Say: Allah answers you concerning the person who has neither parents nor offspring (Kalalah); if a man dies (and) he has no child and he has a sister, she shall have half of what he leaves, and he shall be her heir she has no child; but if there be two (sisters), they shall have the two-thirds of what he leaves; and if there are brothers, men and women, then the male shall have a portion of the two females; Allah explains to you, lest you err; and Allah is all-Knowing of every thing.

[The Quran ; 4:176]

يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَهُ أُخْتٌ فَلَهَا نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ وَهُوَ يَرِثُهَآ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهَا وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانُواْ إِخْوَةً رِّجَالاً وَنِسَاء فَلِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ يُبَيِّنُ اللّهُ لَكُمْ أَن تَضِلُّواْ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ (176)

-> How clear is this man: فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ , Falahuma Al Thulthan, almost identical sentence to 4:11, let me put both on top of each other so you can compare:

--- 4:11 فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ , Falahunna Thultha Ma Tarak
--- 4:176 فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ , Falahuma Al Thulthan

The Irab of both words: Thultha as it appeared in 4:11 and the word Al Thulthan as it appeared in 4:176 is Mubtadda, i.e. both words must be voweled with ooooo, however for dual words that end with AN, the Rafi by Dummah can not be used and instead the Rafi is by the Alif that is before the Noon and Thiboot Al Noon, i.e. the Noon must be there in addition to the Alif as clearly seen in 4:176

Therefore because the Noon is not in the word Thultha as it appeared in 4:11 then it can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t be Dual that has an omitted Noon because it is a Mubtadda that should be vowled by the Alif before the Noon and the Noon must not be ommitted EXACTLY AS SEEN IN 4:176

Before you pull your hair seeing another allegation biting the dust let me totally slam dunk ya and again by using the Quran alone:

Singular words with an added Alif in the end due to the Irab are very common in the Arabic language, here is 3 examples from many in the Quran, in each example I will show you the singular word without an Alif then the same word but with an Alif, and in both cases the word stayed SINGULAR

Let me start with the word Quran, here it is without an Alif at the end:

Alif Lam Ra. These are the signs of the Book and an obvious Quran.

[The Quran ; 15:1]

الَرَ تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْكِتَابِ وَقُرْآنٍ مُّبِينٍ (1)

-> See قُرْآنٍ , Quran, i.e. Quran

Here it is with an Alif at the end:

A Book of which the verses are explained, an Arabic Quran for a people who know:

[The Quran ; 41:3]

كِتَابٌ فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِّقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ (3)

-> See قُرْآنًا , Qurana, i.e. Quran

In both cases the word Quran or Qurana stayed SINGULAR

Another example is the word Sullum, Ladder, here it is without an Alif at the end:

Or have they a ladder by which they listen? Then let their listener bring a clear authority.

[The Quran ; 52:38]

أَمْ لَهُمْ سُلَّمٌ يَسْتَمِعُونَ فِيهِ فَلْيَأْتِ مُسْتَمِعُهُم بِسُلْطَانٍ مُّبِينٍ (38)

-> See سُلَّمٌ , Sullum, i.e. Ladder

Here it is with an Alif at the end:

And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek a tunnel into the earth or a ladder in the heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant.

[The Quran ; 6:35]

وَإِن كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَن تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاء فَتَأْتِيَهُم بِآيَةٍ وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَى فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ (35)

-> See سُلَّمًا , Sulluma, i.e. Ladder

In both cases the word Sullum or Sulluma stayed SINGULAR

And finally, the word Maqam Place, here it is without an Alif at the end:

Surely the pious are in a secure place

[The Quran ; 44:51]

إِنَّ الْمُتَّقِينَ فِي مَقَامٍ أَمِينٍ (51)

See مَقَامٍ , Maqam, i.e. Place

And here it is with an Alif at the end:

And during a part of the night, pray continuously beyond what is incumbent on you; maybe your Lord will raise you to a place of great glory.

[The Quran ; 17:79]

وَمِنَ اللَّيْلِ فَتَهَجَّدْ بِهِ نَافِلَةً لَّكَ عَسَى أَن يَبْعَثَكَ رَبُّكَ مَقَامًا مَّحْمُودًا (79)

See مَقَامًا , Maqama, i.e. Place

In both cases the word Maqam or Maqama stayed SINGULAR

Therefore it is clear that the word Thultha with an Alif at the end as it appeared in 4:11 means one-third

Let me now look at your example and see how the inheritance should be distributed:

1) Two daughters
2) Two Parents
3) One wife

Let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s distribute the estate:

1) According to 4:11, the two daughters should take: 1/3
2) According to 4:11, the parents should take 1/6 each, i.e. 1/6 + 1/6 = 1/3
3) According to 4:12, the wife should take 1/8

Total = 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/8 = 19/24

I.e. we still have 5/24 to be distributed to whoever

That should slam dunk your allegation above for life:


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JulianCharteris wrote:
19/24 still doesn't add up to 1, Ahmed. It's still an error. Your dunk has been unslammed.


Hey J C

Let me prove to you that you are dumb:

you know why we have 5/24 to play with?, I mean sort of like a reserve


here is one of the reasons why:

Imagine we have the following fan scenario:

1) One daughter
2) Two Parents
3) One wife

Let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s distribute the estate:

1) According to 4:11, the daughter should take: 1/2
2) According to 4:11, the parents should take 1/6 each, i.e. 1/6 + 1/6 = 1/3
3) According to 4:12, the wife should take 1/8

Total = 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/8 = 23/24

I.e. we still have 1/24 to be distributed to whoever

That should be another slam dunk, you know:



In my next comment, I will show you where that 5/24 or 1/24 should go to, and that will be the final slam dunk and the knock out

Cheers

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JulianCharteris wrote:
That's right - 24/24 = 1. Give the Muslim a clap for understanding basic arithmetic.
Your answers still don't add up to 1, buddy.


Hello All

As we have seen above that in two possible scenarios (two daughters, two parents, one wife) & (one daughter, two parents, one wife), we ended up with 5/24 & 1/24 of the estate left, where that money goes?, well, the answer lies in the same sura, verse no 8, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s have a look:

And when there are present at the division the relatives and the orphans and the needy, give them (something) out of it and speak to them kind words.

[The Quran ; 4:8]

وَإِذَا حَضَرَ الْقِسْمَةَ أُوْلُواْ الْقُرْبَى وَالْيَتَامَى وَالْمَسَاكِينُ فَارْزُقُوهُم مِّنْهُ وَقُولُواْ لَهُمْ قَوْلاً مَّعْرُوفًا (8)

-> See, And when there are present at the division the relatives and the orphans and the needy, give them (something) out of it , ie.. in these 2 scenarios we have 5/24 or 1/24 of the estate to be given to the relatives and the orphans and the needy if any of them is present during the division of the deceased estate, and on top of that: and speak to them kind words. , i.e. in addition to giving the relatives and the orphans and the needy that money, we should also speak to them kind words.

Let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s now look at the estate distribution again in each scenario:

A) Two daughters, two parents, one wife:
Should leave us with 5/24 of the estate, therefore it goes to the relatives and the orphans and the needy

i.e. the estate total = 19/24 (first relatives) + 5/24 (the relatives and the orphans and the needy) = 24/24 = 1

B) One daughters, two parents, one wife:
Should leave us with 1/24 of the estate, therefore it goes to the relatives and the orphans and the needy

i.e. the estate total = 23/24 (first relatives) + 1/24 (the relatives and the orphans and the needy) = 24/24 = 1

And that should be the final slam dunk:


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AhmedBahgat wrote:
JulianCharteris wrote:
That's right - 24/24 = 1. Give the Muslim a clap for understanding basic arithmetic.
Your answers still don't add up to 1, buddy.


Hello All

As we have seen above that in two possible scenarios (two daughters, two parents, one wife) & (one daughter, two parents, one wife), we ended up with 5/24 & 1/24 of the estate left, where that money goes?, well, the answer lies in the same sura, verse no 8, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s have a look:

And when there are present at the division the relatives and the orphans and the needy, give them (something) out of it and speak to them kind words.

[The Quran ; 4:8]

وَإِذَا حَضَرَ الْقِسْمَةَ أُوْلُواْ الْقُرْبَى وَالْيَتَامَى وَالْمَسَاكِينُ فَارْزُقُوهُم مِّنْهُ وَقُولُواْ لَهُمْ قَوْلاً مَّعْرُوفًا (Cool

-> See, And when there are present at the division the relatives and the orphans and the needy, give them (something) out of it , ie.. in these 2 scenarios we have 5/24 or 1/24 of the estate to be given to the relatives and the orphans and the needy if any of them is present during the division of the deceased estate, and on top of that: and speak to them kind words. , i.e. in addition to giving the relatives and the orphans and the needy that money, we should also speak to them kind words.

Let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s now look at the estate distribution again in each scenario:

A) Two daughters, two parents, one wife:
Should leave us with 5/24 of the estate, therefore it goes to the relatives and the orphans and the needy

i.e. the estate total = 19/24 (first relatives) + 5/24 (the relatives and the orphans and the needy) = 24/24 = 1

B) One daughters, two parents, one wife:
Should leave us with 1/24 of the estate, therefore it goes to the relatives and the orphans and the needy

i.e. the estate total = 23/24 (first relatives) + 1/24 (the relatives and the orphans and the needy) = 24/24 = 1

And that should be the final slam dunk:



Excellent and I am surprised to see that Ali Sina and his people at FFI have never really read and understood Qur'aan.

Tell Ali Sina to withdraw the following which he wrote and which was posted by Ahmadcross (ahmadsalib). LOL!

Quote:
Unpopular Arab Thoughts That All Arabs Have Thought
THE LATEST NEWS IN RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION ALL OVER THE WORLD, BUT ESPECIALLY THE MIDDLE EAST AND EGYPT

Who Taught Allah Math?
March 14, 2007
By Ali Sina

One of the most obvious mathematical mistakes of the Quran can be found in the division of the inheritance.

The laws of inheritance are spread out in several Suras. One can find references to them in Al-Baqarah(2), Al-Maidah(5) and Al-Anfal(Cool. But the details of these laws are spelled out in the Surah Nisa (4).

Q. 4:11
Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Allah (thus) directs you as regards your ChildrenÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases (Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s) after the payment of legacies and debtsÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¦Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â

Q. 4: 12
Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debtsÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¦Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â

Q. 4:176
Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance: If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance: If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them): if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â

Despite the fact that it says Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Allah made them clearÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â, these laws are far from clear.

Verse 4:11 says that if a man has only one daughter, she gets half of the inheritance irrespective of other heirs. But since the same verse says that the portion of the male is twice that of the female, her brother is supposed to get all the inheritance. Isn�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t this a discrepancy? Certainly there is an error in how this law is written. Yet the problem is aggravated further when the share of other heirs like parents and wives are taken into consideration.

There are cases when the total of the shares assigned to the heirs exceeds the patrimony. Take for example the following.

According to the above verses, if a man dies leaving behind a wife, three daughters and his two parents,

His wife�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s share of his inheritance is 1/8. (In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth)

His daughters would receive 2/3 (if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance;)

and his parents each will get 1/6 of his inheritance. (For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children;)

When you add all these fractions the sum is more than the total of inheritance.

Wife1/8 = 3/24
Daughters 2/3 = 16/24
Father 1/6 = 4/24
Mother1/6 = 4/24
Total = 27/24

Now take another example. Say a man is survived by his wife, his mother and his sisters.

The wife receives 1/4 of the inheritance, (In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child;)

the mother 1/3 (if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the heirs, the mother has a third;)

and the sisters 2/3. (If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them)

When we add up these fractions they too are more than the total.

Wife1/4 = 3/12
Mother 1/3 = 4/12
Sisters 2/3 = 8/12
Total = 15/12

In the above examples, the shares apportioned to the heirs exceed the total of the inheritance. In both cases the total of the inheritance sums to exactly one BEFORE taking into account the wife�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s share.

What should be done if a man has two wives, one with children and the other without children? Does the one with children receive 1/8 and the one without children 1/4? And is this justice?

Now suppose a woman dies leaving a husband and a brother:

Husband receives half (In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child.)

Brother receives everything (If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance.)

Does this mean that the parents, sisters and husband do not get anything? In that case where is the justice and if they do how can the brother get everything?

Husband, (1/2) = 1/2
Brother (everything) = 2/2
Total = 3/2

This verse does not specify that the brother gets everything only when there are no other heirs. It just says when there are no children he gets everything. In the same verse it says that if a man dies leaving a sister, she gets half. What will happen to the other half?

Here is another example: A woman leaves behind a husband, a sister and a mother.

Husband, (1/2) = 3/6
Sister (1/2) = 3/6
Mother (1/3) = 2/6
Total = 8/6

We can conclude that the Quran in matters of inheritance is very obtuse. It is so obtuse that Shiites and Sunnis practice this law differently. For example:

If a man leaves a wife and the two parents, the Shiits will give the wife 1/4 and then distribute the remainder as 1/3 for the mother and 2/3 for the father, i.e. they will receive 1/4 and 1/2 of the original estate (see #2741). Sunnis give the wife 1/4, the mother 1/3 and the father as the nearest male relative the rest, i.e. 5/12. As one can witness, the Quran is anything but clear.

In order to solve these problems the Islamic doctors of law have devised a complex Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??scienceÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? called Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Al-FaraÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??idÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â. It contains rules of Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??AwlÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? and Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Usbah,Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? and the laws of Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??UsoolÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? of the FaraÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??id, the laws of Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Hajb wa Hirman,Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? and many other issues relating to this matter.

The laws of �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??Awl�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?� (accommodation) deals with cases when the inheritor�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s shares exceed or �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??overshoot�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?� the sum of the total inheritance. In such case the shares are adjusted to accommodate everyone. This is how it works:

Wife1/8 = 3/24 is changed to 3/27
Daughters 2/3 = 16/24 is changed to 16/27
Father 1/6 = 4/24 is changed to 4/27
Mother1/6 = 4/24 is changed to 4/27
Total = 27/24 27/27

and for the second case,

Wife1/4 = 3/12 is changed to 3/15
Mother 1/3 = 4/12 is changed to 4/15
Sisters 2/3 = 8/12 is changed to 8/15
Total = 15/12 15/15

Thus the problem is solved thanks to human ingenuity but the portions are not the same as indicated in the Quran. Each party has to waive part of his or her share in order to make this law work. This is a clear case in which the words of Allah needed human intervention in order to become applicable.

There are yet cases when the shares of the inheritors do not sum to a whole 100% and there is a surplus left.

Take for example a man who dies and leaves his wife and his parents.

Parents 1/3 = 4/12
Wife 1/4 = 3/12
Total = 7/12

Who will receive the balance 5/12 of the inheritance?

The following are other cases that after the distribution, there is a surplus of Inheritance::

scenario fund distributed surplus
Only a wife: = 1/4 3/4
Only a mother: = 1/3 2/3
Only a daughter = 1/2 1/2
Two daughters = 2/3 1/3
Only a Sister = 1/2 1/2
A mother and a sister = 1/3 + 1/2 = 5/6 1/6
A wife and a mother = 1/4 + 1/3 = 5/12 7/12
A sister and a wife = 1/2 + 1/4 = 3/4 1/4

In all these cases and many other combinations there is a surplus. What will happen to this surplus? Who will inherit it?

To deal with this problem the law of �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??Usbah�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?� comes to effect. This law is to regulate the unclaimed shares, which have no corresponding people to receive them. Of course if the Quran was clear with no errors, there would have been no need for all these �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??sciences�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?� and amendments.

The law of Usbah is based on the following Hadith.

Sahih Bukhari 8. 80. 724
Narrated Ibn �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??Abbas:
The Prophet said, Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Give the FaraÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??id (the shares of the inheritance that are prescribed in the QurÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??an) to those who are entitled to receive it. Then whatever remains, should be given to the closest male relative of the deceased.Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â

According to this law, a man who dies and is survived by only his daughter with no other close male relative except a second cousin, his daughter will receive half of his inheritance and the other half will go to the man�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s second cousin. This seems quite unfair to the daughter, but it would be especially unfair if the man had a needy aunt or a female first cousin that would receive nothing because they are of the wrong gender.

Now suppose that a man has no other heir except his wife and a distant male relative. The wife will receive 1/4 and the distant male relative gets the balance, i.e. three times the inheritance that his widowed wife gets. Is this justice?

What if the deceased has no male relative at all? What will happen to the rest of his inheritance? What happens in the reverse case when a wife has no relatives? The husband will receive half of her inheritance; who will get the other half?

Note that in the Quran there is no priority for the distribution of the inheritance. In nowhere it says Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??first give to these and from what is left, give to thoseÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â. Even if we had to reinterpret these laws and prioritize them in the order that they are mentioned, it still does not work because in that case, each subsequent inheritor will have his or her share shrunk. Also in most cases the total inheritance will never be used up.

This is the fallacy in which Mr. Sami Zaatari engages. In an attempt to refute this article Mr. Zaatari wrote: Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??If A [ the deceased] left a widow or widower, the widowÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s or widowerÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s share would first be calculated as in the first half of verse 4:1″

Mr. Zaatari must show us this instruction in the Quran. There is no provision in the Quran to pay certain inheritors first and divide the rest among other heirs. The fact remains that the Quran in matters of the division of the inheritance is wrong mathematically.

The obtuseness of these laws of inheritance is further emphasized in the following example. Consider the case of a man with only one daughter and 10 sons. According to the Quran, the daughter receives half while all the sons must share among themselves the other half. So each will receive not more than 1/20 of the inheritance. But this would contradict the other ruling that a male is to receive twice the share of the female.

Of course for 1400 years Muslims have practiced Islam and somehow they managed to make these confusing laws work. How they did it? They reinterpreted, adjusted and compromised to make sense of these nonsense laws. They put all the inheritance in a pool and gave to each male child twice the share of their female siblings. This solution, though satisfies one of the ruling of the Quran about the inheritance, it contradicts the other.

Despite all these incongruencies and errors the real problem with these laws is not the fact that they do not add up. The problem is in the inherent injustice that they embody. A fair minded person cannot avoid but to question, why daughters should receive half of what the sons receive? Why sisters receive less than brothers? And why a widower is entitled to double the share than a widow? Why the Quran states �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??to the male, a portion equal to that of two females�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�� (4:11). Think of a man with four wives. All the wives have to share the �??????�?????�????�???�??�?�¼ of his wealth, if he has no children and 1/8 if he has. In the first case each wife will receive 1/16 of the inheritance and in the second case 1/32. How a woman who may not be young enough to remarry can survive with such meager share in a male dominated society as Islamic countries? On the other hand a man who loses all his four wives will inherit half to �??????�?????�????�???�??�?�¼ of every wife�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s wealth. Isn�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t this the formula to enrich the men and impoverish the women? It is easier to forget the mathematical errors of the Quran than forgive its injustice.

The verse (4:175) claims that Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? As we saw, the above laws are anything but clear. They do not add up, the portions are not clearly defined, and the shares are distributed unfairly. It is up to Muslims to decide whether Allah, does not have the Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??knowledge of all thingsÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â, cannot add simple fractions, is confused and unfair or that the Quran is mistaken, and Muhammad was not a prophet of God. It is one or the other. You decide.

Posted by ahmedsalib Filed in News by Others, TRUTH


You did a great job, Ahmed. If you had not pointed out about the Oolil-qurba, yataamah and masaakeen to them, these guys would have gone totalling fractions, coming up with ridiculous answers.
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Tvebak wrote:
Hi Ahmed


Tvebak wrote:

Some questions to your translation.


Sure but there will be no ping pong game, you can simply reject my answers

Tvebak wrote:

Does "walad" mean child?


The word Walad commonly known to be "Son" but gramatically it should mean a child (i.e. a son or daughter), if you look carefully to 4:11 starting words, you should read the words [Yusikum Allah Fi Awlaadakum....], Awlaadakum here is the plural of Walad, and in no way it means "Sons", because just after that, the verse said (for the male portion is double the female portion), i.e. Awlaad means (sons and daughters) therefore Walad means (a son or a daughter

Tvebak wrote:

About the 1/3 or 2/3 is it only when there's more than 2 daughters and not also when there's 2 daughters?


The Arabic word Fawqa can also include the number that follow it as the startimng boundry, for example Fawaqa Ithnain, means 2 and more, this is obvious from the context of the verse because it discussed the possibility of one daughter then two daughters and onward using the word Fawqa, that understanding is confirmed by analysing 4:176 where we have a similar situation but through the Kalalah (i.e. only sisters or brothers will inherit), you should see that 4:176 explained similar boundries, without the possibilty of more than 2 sisters which should also belogically understood from the context, i.e. two sisters or more and without using the word Fawqa, bearing in mind that in the case of Kalalah while we have 2 sisters or more and no brothers then they take 2/3 but in the cads of 2 daughters or more, they take 1/3.

You should not wonder that the daughters take less, in fact it is very logical because the parents still share with the daugheters and take 1/3 while in the casse of Kalalah there is no parents to share and their 1/3 (2 x 1/6) should go to the sisters hence the 2/3 allocated to them under kalalah(logically soeaking)

Tvebak wrote:

Cheers and peace


No worries, but remember, no ping pong game

Good night

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JulianCharteris wrote:
Ahmed, If a man dies and leaves a daughter, a wife, and parents:
daughter gets 1/2, parents get 1/6 each = 1/3, wife gets 1/4
= 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 = 6/12 + 4/12 + 3/12 = 13/12 So who contributes the additional 1/12?


Dumb fool Bum

The wife takes 1/8 not 1/4

She will only take 1/4, when the deceased have no children

You are dismissed

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JulianCharteris wrote:
Change that to wife leaves husband, daughter and parents.
daughter gets 1/2, parents get 1/6 each = 1/3, husband gets 1/4
= 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 = 6/12 + 4/12 + 3/12 = 13/12


Dumb bum

Read 4:11 again (slowly) and you should recopgnise that it is talkin about the dead husband not the dead wife

Now if you reverse it i.e. the wife is the one who died, then 4:11 does not apply and what should apply only is the husband takes 1/2 if the wife has no children or takes 1/4 if the wife has children, as stated in 4:12

The Quran never discussed the issue of a woman dying and leaving chiildren. Therefore dismiss your stupid arse because you have been slam dunked for the fourth time in one thread, that is a record btw

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Tvebak wrote:
Does "walad" mean child?


AhmedBahgat wrote:
The word Walad commonly known to be "Son" but grammatically it should mean a child (i.e. a son or daughter), if you look carefully to 4:11 starting words, you should read the words [Yusikum Allah Fi Awlaadakum....], Awlaadakum here is the plural of Walad, and in no way it means "Sons", because just after that, the verse said (for the male portion is double the female portion), i.e. Awlaad means (sons and daughters) therefore Walad means (a son or a daughter


Tvebak wrote:
I was under the impression that "bint" means "girl" or "daughter" and "walad" means "boy" or "son" ie. is masculin.


AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hi
Wrong
son means "Bunnai"


Tvebak wrote:
Hi Ahmed


Hello

Tvebak wrote:
you just yourself stated that "wallad" commonly is known as "son".


I said commonly known, not in the Vocabulary and Grammar, and what I mean by common, in the public language

Tvebak wrote:
But as far as I can see "walad" is predominately used as "boy" ie. for "male".


Well, it seems to me that you don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t see too far, or possibly blind, let me prove it to you:

A lot of ignorant humans think that the Arabic word وَلَدً, Walad means Son, this is not true at all, the proper Arabic word for Son is بُنَيَّ, Bunnai

Let me put is in a clearer manner:

Singular:
Son = ابن Ibbn
Daughter = بَنَتِ Bint
Child = وَلَد , Walad

Plural:
Sons = بَنُونَ Banoon, or بَنِينَ , Baneen, depends on the Irab
Daughters = بَنَاتُ , Banaat
Children = أَوْلاَدِ , Awalad

i.e. Walad can mean a male child or a female child, both apply. The word itself is a verb that mean to begot, i.e. to begot a boy or a girl, however the ignorant Arab use the verb commonly in their public speech as a noun to refer to a son, and again they are 100% wrong, also any English translator who translated the word Walada as Son is 100% wrong too. Walad only means a child and surely enough that a child can be either a son or a daughter.

Let me prove it to you using the Quran alone:

In the following example we will see clearly what I said above:

149: Then ask them whether your Lord has daughters and they have sons.
150: Or did We create the angels females while they were witnesses?
151: Now surely it is of their own lie that they say:
152: Allah has begotten children? but they are liars!
153: Has He chosen daughters in preference to sons?

[The Quran ; 37:149-153]

فَاسْتَفْتِهِمْ أَلِرَبِّكَ الْبَنَاتُ وَلَهُمُ الْبَنُونَ (149)
أَمْ خَلَقْنَا الْمَلَائِكَةَ إِنَاثًا وَهُمْ شَاهِدُونَ (150)
أَلَا إِنَّهُم مِّنْ إِفْكِهِمْ لَيَقُولُونَ (151)
وَلَدَ اللَّهُ وَإِنَّهُمْ لَكَاذِبُونَ (152)
أَصْطَفَى الْبَنَاتِ عَلَى الْبَنِينَ (153)

-> 37:149, Allah is exposing the pagan ignorance:Then ask them whether your Lord has daughters and they have sons, see the two Arabic words in plurals form that that are used for Sons and Daughters, الْبَنُونَ and الْبَنَاتُ, Al Banoon and Al Banaat

-> 37:150, Allah then exposed the ignorance of those who claimed that the angels are females Or did We create the angels females while they were witnesses?, i.e. the pagan used to claim that the Angels are females and they are the children of Allah.

-> 37:153, Again Allah is exposing the pagan ignorance: Has He chosen daughters in preference to sons? , see the two Arabic words in plurals form that that are used for Sons and Daughters, الْبَنِينَ and الْبَنَاتِ , Al Baneen and Al Banaat

I have a feeling that you may insist on your ignorance with the Arabic language and say: no, Walad means a Son, hmmm, the following verses will refute you big times then:

26: And they said: The Beneficent Allah has taken to Himself a child. Glory be to Him. Nay! they are honoured servants
27: They speak not until He hath spoken, and they act by His command.
28: He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble.

[The Quran ; 21:26-28]

وَقَالُوا اتَّخَذَ الرَّحْمَنُ وَلَدًا سُبْحَانَهُ بَلْ عِبَادٌ مُّكْرَمُونَ (26)
لَا يَسْبِقُونَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ وَهُم بِأَمْرِهِ يَعْمَلُونَ (27)
يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلَا يَشْفَعُونَ إِلَّا لِمَنِ ارْتَضَى وَهُم مِّنْ خَشْيَتِهِ مُشْفِقُونَ (28)

-> See, the verses are talking about the ANGELS whom the people claimed to be daughters of Allah, however we read in 21:26 that they referred to the daughters of Allah as Walada, وَقَالُوا اتَّخَذَ الرَّحْمَنُ وَلَدًا, we know that the pagans claim against the angels that they are daughters and not sons, hence the word WALADA means a daughter or a son: And they say: The Beneficent Allah has taken to Himself a CHILD.


From the above compelling Quran evidences, there is no atom weight of doubt that the Arabic word Walad means a child

Tvebak wrote:
But besides this, the Quran has another word for "child"/"children": Is it "tifl"?


No, Tifl does not mean child:

Tifl means any one of those youngsters who have not reached puberty

Tvebak wrote:
but anyways it's used in the following places "alttifli" in 24.31 "tiflan" in 22.05, 40.67. And this word seems to be the "gender-neutral" word for "child".


Dismissed

Tvebak wrote:
About your translation I have another question regarding "brothers". Should it not be "siblings", "ikhwatun", in 4.11?
Cheers and peace


Well, what it should be is brothers and sisters and that is what Ikhawah means, however I used brothers as a substitute for all because in Arabic you can use the masculine plural to refer to a group of males and females together

Cheers

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JulianCharteris wrote:
Question for Ahmed. A son gets the share equal of two females.
A man has a wife and son and 2 parents.
What does the son get?


I thought you will come with something harder:

If the man has 100 units

The wife takes = 100/8 = 12.5 units

Each parent takes = 100/6 = 16.67 units

The son takes = 54.16 units


Next

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Hello All

Until the ignorant goons on FFI find an answer for the mother of all arguments that I presented in this thread in regards to the inheritance laws in the Quran (4:11, 4:12 & 4:176), which I know will take them a life time, I will take the chance to teach those who want to learn Arabic, (The Dual words), btw I have an Arabic grammar book that I refer to, I might scan a few pages from it and post it later (it�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s all in Arabic)

Most Arabic singular nouns can be converted to dual by adding two letters at its end

The two letters can be any of the following:

1) Alif + Noon, i.e. ان, pronounced: AN
2) Ya + Noon, i.e. ين, pronounced: AYN

Which method we should use above to make dual words?, it all depends on something called Irab, i.e. identifying the vowel at the last letter(s) of the word

As I explained earlier in this thread, there are 3 commonly used vowels, those 3 are the ones that will control which method of the above 2 we go for to create dual words of their corresponding singular words

The 3 methods of Irab that apply to those three vowels are as follow:

i) Marfoo Bi Dummah (oooooo)
ii) Mansoob Bi Fatiha (aaaaaaa)
iii) Magroor Bi Kasirah (eeeeeee)

However the above vowels can not apply to the dual nouns, instead it goes like this:

The 3 methods of Irab that apply to dual words are as follow:

i) Marfoo Bi Alif (which is the pre-last letter, ie. the Alif before the Noon - Method 1 to create dual words, seen above)
ii) Mansoob Bi Ya (which is the pre-last letter, ie. the Ya before the Noon - Method 2 to create dual words, seen above)
iii) Magroor Bi Ya (which is the pre-last letter, ie. the Ya before the Noon - Method 2 to create dual words, seen above)


Let me show you a few examples to singular Arabic nouns then show you their dual forms as appeared in the Quran:

A) الْمَشْرِق , Al Mashriq, The East, another word is : الْمَغْرِبَ , Al Maghrib, The West

To make the above words dual, we may add Alif + Noon, or Ya + Noon to the last letter in each word above depending on Irab, here is the two words above in dual form as appeared in 55:17, the Irab of each word is Muddaf Ilaih, i.e. both must be Magroor Bi Ya, i.e. we have to use Ya + Noon to make both dual:

رَبُّ الْمَشْرِقَيْنِ وَرَبُّ الْمَغْرِبَيْنِ (17)

[The Quran ; 55:17]
-> I.e. Lord of the two easts and Lord of the two wests


B) الْبَحْر , Al Bahr, The Sea

To make the above word dual, we may add Alif + Noon, or Ya + Noon to the last letter depending on Irab, here is the word above in dual form as appeared in 55:19, the Irab the word is Mafool Bihi, i.e. it must be Mansoob Bi Ya, i.e. we have to use Ya + Noon to make it dual:

مَرَجَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ يَلْتَقِيَانِ (19)

[The Quran ; 55:19]
-> I.e. He has made the two seas to flow, they meet together

C) جنة , Jannah, Garden

To make the above word dual, we may add Alif + Noon, or Ya + Noon to the last letter depending on Irab, here is the word above in dual form as appeared in 55:46, the Irab the word is Mubtadda , i.e. it must be Marfoo Bi Alif, i.e. we have to use Alif + Noon to make it dual:

وَلِمَنْ خَافَ مَقَامَ رَبِّهِ جَنَّتَانِ (46)

[The Quran ; 55:46]
-> I.e. And for him who fears to stand before his Lord are two gardens.

D) الثُّلُثُ , Al Thulth, the one-third

To make the above word dual, we may add Alif + Noon, or Ya + Noon to the last letter depending on Irab, here is the word above in dual form as appeared in 4:176, the Irab the word is Mubtadda , i.e. it must be Marfoo Bi Alif, i.e. we have to use Alif + Noon to make it dual:

يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَهُ أُخْتٌ فَلَهَا نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ وَهُوَ يَرِثُهَآ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهَا وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانُواْ إِخْوَةً رِّجَالاً وَنِسَاء فَلِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ يُبَيِّنُ اللّهُ لَكُمْ أَن تَضِلُّواْ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ (176)

[The Quran ; 4:176]
-> I.e. And if they are two sisters then the two-third is for them

At the end of this class I woul like to give you a small test, here is 4:11 for you and I will give a lolli if you can find the word Thulthan or Thulthayn i.e. two-third:


يُوصِيكُمُ اللّهُ فِي أَوْلاَدِكُمْ لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ فَإِن كُنَّ نِسَاء فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانَتْ وَاحِدَةً فَلَهَا النِّصْفُ وَلأَبَوَيْهِ لِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ مِمَّا تَرَكَ إِن كَانَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ فَلأُمِّهِ الثُّلُثُ فَإِن كَانَ لَهُ إِخْوَةٌ فَلأُمِّهِ السُّدُسُ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصِي بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ آبَآؤُكُمْ وَأَبناؤُكُمْ لاَ تَدْرُونَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ لَكُمْ نَفْعاً فَرِيضَةً مِّنَ اللّهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيما حَكِيمًا (11)


[The Quran ; 4:11]


See you next lesson

Cheers

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My hat off to you, Ahmed. Thanks for explaining the basics.

You wrote so well:

رَبُّ الْمَشْرِقَيْنِ وَرَبُّ الْمَغْرِبَيْنِ (17)

[The Quran ; 55:17]
-> I.e. Lord of the two easts and Lord of the two wests

The FFI goons will now be asking you,"How can there be two Easts and two Wests?" Laughing Don't answer but instead ask them to explain. Can you post that question to Ali Sina and ask him to explain? Laughing

Salaams
BMZ
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BMZ wrote:
My hat off to you, Ahmed. Thanks for explaining the basics.

You wrote so well:

رَبُّ الْمَشْرِقَيْنِ وَرَبُّ الْمَغْرِبَيْنِ (17)

[The Quran ; 55:17]
-> I.e. Lord of the two easts and Lord of the two wests

The FFI goons will now be asking you,"How can there be two Easts and two Wests?" Laughing Don't answer but instead ask them to explain. Can you post that question to Ali Sina and ask him to explain? Laughing

Salaams
BMZ


Salam bro

No worries man, as I told you on the phone it is going to be a mind blowing discovery, I really hope that some Arabic speakers who are Muslims to reoly to the above any where on the net instead of wastinig my time with the FFI goons who know no Arabic yet they argue against its tough grammar

Regading the two easts and two wests, lol bro, I know what the goons and their matsre Ali Sina said already, it's been refuted fair and square on FFI

Take care mate

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JulianCharteris wrote:
What does a son get if a man leaves a son and ten daughters, no parents and no wife?


For a $12000 estate:

Each daughter takes $1000

And the son takes $2000

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