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Post subject: gabriel and michael Reply with quote  

# i *think* majority of sunnis and shiites hold muhammad to be the greatest (or atleast co-greatest) of all the created beings!

...so, effectively, muhammad, for them, is "greater" than gabriel and michael; i have read some traditions which, i feel, even belittle these two servants of god!

## i cannot swear to this, but i think i have read a claim that every human is created higher than the angels; and the proof provided was the verse where the angels are said to prostrate unto adam! at the very least, adam is considered superior to gabriel and michael, based on the same verse!

...my question to the people in here is: do u subscribe to this? that muhammad and adam are "greater" than the angels? and that they are "greater" than gabriel and michael?

# i hope not to create a fitna, but my take is that gabriel and michael are, at least, not "lesser" than any human!

## salam!
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Wed 26 Dec, 2007 1:24 pm
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AhmedBahgat
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Salam brother

I believe the righteous humans in general ( not explicitly Mohammed or Adam ) are put in a higher ;evel than the angels, this is because two logical reasons:

1) The angels has not given a limited freewill as the human are given
2) the angels are made to serve the humans in a way to fullfil Allah laws, for example Jebril was a servant to all prophets, not in a worshipping manner, rather to fulfil their needs
3) another example of the angels is Malik who is the guardain of Hell, again he was created for such reason only
4) and the two angels who write our deeds, again they can only do that
5) the angels also have no reward

therefore I believe the humans are held in higher level than the angels in the eyes of Allah, of course the ones who are righteous not the others

For the Jinns though, I will have no idea so please don't ask me Very Happy

Allah knows best


Salam

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Thu 27 Dec, 2007 12:05 am
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Quote:

I believe the righteous humans in general ( not explicitly Mohammed or Adam ) are put in a higher ;evel than the angels, this is because two logical reasons:

1) The angels has not given a limited freewill as the human are given


# i don't see how freewill puts humans at a higher level; ofcourse, djinns also have freewill, and who knows, maybe even animals might be having it! i wonder how freewill can be understood in the light of the quran! (-:

Quote:
2) the angels are made to serve the humans in a way to fullfil Allah laws, for example Jebril was a servant to all prophets, not in a worshipping manner, rather to fulfil their needs


# what u call as a servant i could very well term as a master or wali! just because Allaah strengthened some prophets through gabriel or angels, i don't think v should interpret them as servants!

Quote:
3) another example of the angels is Malik who is the guardain of Hell, again he was created for such reason only


# again, a guardian of hell is in nowise a servant to humans!

Quote:
4) and the two angels who write our deeds, again they can only do that


# same thing...they write it in obedience to god's command...by that logic the prophets would be servants to entire humankind!

Quote:
5) the angels also have no reward


# ...then neither do they have condemnation!

Quote:
therefore I believe the humans are held in higher level than the angels in the eyes of Allah, of course the ones who are righteous not the others


# i think i will disagree...for reasons i stated above! (-:

Quote:
For the Jinns though, I will have no idea so please don't ask me Very Happy


# yeah...v will keep it for another time! (-:

...in the meanwhile i would appreciate more feedback from u and others...this has been gnawing at my mind for a long time...and another thing related to this!

# salam, brother...take care! (-:
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Thu 27 Dec, 2007 3:50 am
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Salam bro

Ok mate, it seems I expressed their role using the word servent wrong, I agree that they are Awliaa, i.e. guardians

now to know which is higher the angels or the humans, is going to be really hard, I also believe it should make no difference to the belief as long as we believe in them, all my life I, i understood that the humans are higher in the eyes of Allah. however I'm happy to change that if compelling Quran evidence is provided, the whole issue won't affect my belief even after I'm convinced that they are higher than humans

It's a tough subject man

Take care

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Thu 27 Dec, 2007 7:58 am
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Quote:
Ok mate, it seems I expressed their role using the word servent wrong, I agree that they are Awliaa, i.e. guardians


# yeah...awlia seems a fine choice!

Quote:
now to know which is higher the angels or the humans, is going to be really hard, I also believe it should make no difference to the belief as long as we believe in them, all my life I, i understood that the humans are higher in the eyes of Allah. however I'm happy to change that if compelling Quran evidence is provided, the whole issue won't affect my belief even after I'm convinced that they are higher than humans


# what annoys me is that they come up with wierd traditions too show that muhammad is greater than gabriel; it is a bit amazing why they would choose to belittle the mighty gabriel to magnify muhammad's stature! (-:

Quote:
It's a tough subject man


# i agree! (-:

...i will come to the real thing now: are gabriel and michael "malaika"? what are the relevant verses?

## take care...salam! (-:
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Thu 27 Dec, 2007 8:21 pm
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Post subject: Re: Reply with quote  

The wrote:
# what annoys me is that they come up with wierd traditions too show that muhammad is greater than gabriel; it is a bit amazing why they would choose to belittle the mighty gabriel to magnify muhammad's stature! (-:


I think they based their thinking on that hadith about Israa and Miraaj when Jebril could not go beyond a specific point while Mohammed was allowed to go further


The wrote:
...i will come to the real thing now: are gabriel and michael "malaika"? what are the relevant verses?


possibly 2:98


Take care

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Thu 27 Dec, 2007 8:55 pm
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Quote:

I think they based their thinking on that hadith about Israa and Miraaj when Jebril could not go beyond a specific point while Mohammed was allowed to go further


...yes, that and another 1...and neither has any credibility with me!

Quote:
possibly 2:98


2:98
Quote:
Who is an enemy to Allah, and His angels and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael! Then, lo! Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers.


# ...doesn't look like!

# take care...salam! (-:
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Thu 27 Dec, 2007 10:09 pm
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Salam brother The

I have a couple of questions please:

what do you think Jebril is ?

what do you think the message of 2:98 is?

cheers

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Thu 27 Dec, 2007 10:56 pm
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Quote:
what do you think Jebril is ?


# i really don't know...but i do feel that gabriel is a creation other than the angels!

...however, i do feel that gabriel is the "rul alqudusi" mentioned in the quran; and perhaps also "ruh alameen"

...and yes, does appear to me to be the holy spirit mentioned in the bible; ofcourse, according to the bible gabriel and the holy spirit are different!

Quote:
what do you think the message of 2:98 is?


# ...that whoever bears animosity towards god and its angels and its messengers and gabriel and michael, then god is in opposition of that person!

...have i missed something here, bud? (-:

## take care...salam! (-:
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Fri 28 Dec, 2007 10:30 am
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The wrote:
Quote:
what do you think Jebril is ?


# i really don't know...but i do feel that gabriel is a creation other than the angels!


Salam mate

I say he must be one of the intelligent creatures that Allah mentioned in the Quran, i.e. a human, an angel or a jinn, I really can't think on any other intelligent creature

I say it is more plausible to eliminate him as a jinn or a human, so an angel will be the only intelligent creature left

possibly the highest ranked angel?

I guess we need to study the Quran more to find out

of course there is a direct answer in the hearsay hadith, that is if we chose to ignore it assuming it contradict the Quran

The wrote:
...however, i do feel that gabriel is the "rul alqudusi" mentioned in the quran; and perhaps also "ruh alameen"


I believe that Ruh Al Qudus is nothing but a title really, and in such case it may be the title of the highest ranked angel, again more Quran study needed


The wrote:
...and yes, does appear to me to be the holy spirit mentioned in the bible; ofcourse, according to the bible gabriel and the holy spirit are different!


I say that calling him as such in the bible add to the argument that it maybe his title as the highest ranked angel

Quote:
what do you think the message of 2:98 is?



The wrote:
# ...that whoever bears animosity towards god and its angels and its messengers and gabriel and michael, then god is in opposition of that person!
...have i missed something here, bud? (-:


You did not miss as word for word translation, however I meant your understanding, possibly i meant your igtihad to understand the message

I say, not because the angels are mentioned as a separate entity then the two other names Jebril and Michael are mentioned after with a WAW in between that they are not considered from the angels, I agree totally with you that the first mentioned word ANGELS is plural and should cover Jebril and Michael if they are angels, however mentioning them again with a waw is a common style in the Quran to stress their positions in the eyes of Allah in relation to the rest of the angels (assuming we consider them angels for now) I will try to find many examples from the Quran for you later on isnhaallah, this again adds to the argument that Jebril and Michael are two of the highest ranked angels if not the two highest

The wrote:
## take care...salam! (-:


Salam mate

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Sun 30 Dec, 2007 1:17 am
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Quote:
ahmedbahagt wrote:
I say he must be one of the intelligent creatures that Allah mentioned in the Quran, i.e. a human, an angel or a jinn, I really can't think on any other intelligent creature

I say it is more plausible to eliminate him as a jinn or a human, so an angel will be the only intelligent creature left


# isn't that an assumption? just because v cannot think of an intelligent creature, or because it appears no other has been mentioned in the quran, v need not assume that there cannot be another creation! (-:

(again...y eliminate gabriel from djinns?...maybe it is an exceptionally pious and exalted djiin? or even humans?)

Quote:
possibly the highest ranked angel?


# maybe higher than the angels?

Quote:
I guess we need to study the Quran more to find out

of course there is a direct answer in the hearsay hadith, that is if we chose to ignore it assuming it contradict the Quran


i don't really trust the ahadith...too much has been borrowed from jews and christians!


Quote:
I believe that Ruh Al Qudus is nothing but a title really, and in such case it may be the title of the highest ranked angel, again more Quran study needed


i agree, and likewise for ruh alameen...more study needed!

Quote:
I say that calling him as such in the bible add to the argument that it maybe his title as the highest ranked angel


# again, the christians differentiate between the holy spirit and gabriel; for them the "archangel" gabriel is not the same as the holy spirit!

...and i don't think the old testament refers to gabriel as an angel or an archangel; it does seem this has been a practise started after the advent of christianity...not that it would make too much of a difference!

Quote:
You did not miss as word for word translation, however I meant your understanding, possibly i meant your igtihad to understand the message

I say, not because the angels are mentioned as a separate entity then the two other names Jebril and Michael are mentioned after with a WAW in between that they are not considered from the angels, I agree totally with you that the first mentioned word ANGELS is plural and should cover Jebril and Michael if they are angels, however mentioning them again with a waw is a common style in the Quran to stress their positions in the eyes of Allah in relation to the rest of the angels (assuming we consider them angels for now) I will try to find many examples from the Quran for you later on isnhaallah, this again adds to the argument that Jebril and Michael are two of the highest ranked angels if not the two highest


# i *think* i understand what u are saying about the style of the quran, but that does not mean every time a "wa" is used it has to be a part of the preceding group;

"..god, and its angels, and its messengers, and gabriel and michael..."

...i don't see why gabriel and michael need to be curbed with the angels there!

## even at other places v will read, "malaikatu wa al-ruh;" again, no need to force the conclusion that the ruh is one of the angels...or so i think! (-:

...still, i look forward to what u can help me with! (-:

# take care, bro...salam! (-:
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Sun 30 Dec, 2007 5:48 pm
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Jibreel and Mikael are the cheifs and the most involved among the angels. That's why there is a special speech addressing them.
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Tue 01 Jan, 2008 1:25 am
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Quote:
Jibreel and Mikael are the cheifs and the most involved among the angels. That's why there is a special speech addressing them.


# and from where do v get that?

## take care...salam! (-:
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Salam brothers The, Windsor & all


Since brother The posted this thread, I could not stop thinking about it, this is because I knew what he is after, he is after a Quran only evidence. Bringing evidences from the Quran alone is always my first priority, this still does not make me a Quran alone Muslim, I accept anything from anyone even Darwin as long as it does not contradict the Quran, however for this argument presented by brother The, we can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t use anything as prime evidence but the Quran, now if we find out that other evidences implies the same then the other evidences should be considered along with the Quran, however the purpose of this comment is not to look at other evidences rather to look at a verse that for me should answer brother The question conclusively, it happened an hour ago actually, I was driving my car around and thinking about the argument presented, and the verse just hit me, I could not wait actually to go home and write this comment, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s look at the following verse�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�

Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men; surely Allah is Hearing,Seeing

[The Quran ; 22:75]

اللَّهُ يَصْطَفِي مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ رُسُلًا وَمِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ سَمِيعٌ بَصِيرٌ (75)

-> From the above, it is clear that Allah chooses messengers from only two types of creatures:

1) The Angels: Allah chooses messengers from among the angels
2) The Humans: and from among the men

Now if you agree that Jebreel is a messenger of Allah, then he has to be one of the above, now it will impossible to believe that he was a human messenger sent to another human messenger, it makes no sense, therefore, 22:75 must affirm that Jebreel is an angel. Now considering the other verses where Jebreel and Michael were mentioned explicitly with the angels, then Allah indeed put them in a higher rank positions. Add on top of that what we learnt from the hearsay hadith, then 100% Jebreel must be an angel

Cheers

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Tue 01 Jan, 2008 7:47 pm
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Quote:

Since brother The posted this thread, I could not stop thinking about it, this is because I knew what he is after, he is after a Quran only evidence. Bringing evidences from the Quran alone is always my first priority, this still does not make me a Quran alone Muslim, I accept anything from anyone even Darwin as long as it does not contradict the Quran, however for this argument presented by brother The, we can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t use anything as prime evidence but the Quran, now if we find out that other evidences implies the same then the other evidences should be considered along with the Quran, however the purpose of this comment is not to look at other evidences rather to look at a verse that for me should answer brother The question conclusively, it happened an hour ago actually, I was driving my car around and thinking about the argument presented, and the verse just hit me, I could not wait actually to go home and write this comment, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s look at the following verse�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�


# i don't object to things as long as they do not contradict the quran; however, just because they seem to not contradict the quran i do not accept them either! (-:

...anyway, i think that can wait! (-:

Quote:

Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men; surely Allah is Hearing,Seeing
[The Quran ; 22:75]

اللَّهُ يَصْطَفِي مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ رُسُلًا وَمِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ سَمِيعٌ بَصِيرٌ (75)

-> From the above, it is clear that Allah chooses messengers from only two types of creatures:

1) The Angels: Allah chooses messengers from among the angels
2) The Humans: and from among the men


# well, bro...i do not agree with the interpretation u have proposed; my understanding of the verse is that god choses its own messengers; nobody can dictate who should be chosen, nor will be granted who or what they desire! i will also try to give a good reason why the understanding that u have proposed is not acceptable!

...but before v go forward, i would like to see how u define "messengers" (-:

Quote:
Now if you agree that Jebreel is a messenger of Allah, then he has to be one of the above, now it will impossible to believe that he was a human messenger sent to another human messenger, it makes no sense, therefore, 22:75 must affirm that Jebreel is an angel. Now considering the other verses where Jebreel and Michael were mentioned explicitly with the angels, then Allah indeed put them in a higher rank positions. Add on top of that what we learnt from the hearsay hadith, then 100% Jebreel must be an angel


# i think this will be sorted out when v have discussed 22:75! (-:

## again, i appreciate the help u are offering me! (-:

# take care, bud...salam!
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