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Quote:
A messneger is anyone whom Allah appointed to send a specific message through him to a person or to a group of people
# ...then, can an angel be a messenger unto humans?
Quote:
17:95
Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger.
...from this verse it appears that humans have not had an angel as a messenger! (-:
## further...
Quote:
6:130
O ye assembly of the jinn and humankind! Came there not unto you messengers of your own who recounted unto you My tokens and warned you of the meeting of this your Day? They will say: We testify against ourselves. And the life of the world beguiled them. And they testify against themselves that they were disbelievers.
## from this verse it appears that there are messengers from amongst djinns; for this reason i am of the opinion that v cannot conclude, from 22:75, that messengers can only be from angels or humans! (-:
# take care...salam! (-:
Posted:
Wed 02 Jan, 2008 12:21 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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The wrote:
Quote:
A messneger is anyone whom Allah appointed to send a specific message through him to a person or to a group of people
# ...then, can an angel be a messenger unto humans?
Of course, like the angels of death who deliver death from Allah to everyone of us
Quote:
17:95
Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger.
...from this verse it appears that humans have not had an angel as a messenger! (-:[/quote]
Of course the humans had not, but the messnegrs must have a rasool from Allah to deliver to them their tasks that they have to do, and the most valid argument here that this Rasool must be an angel whom Allah praised high in His Quran
The wrote:
# further...
Quote:
6:130
O ye assembly of the jinn and humankind! Came there not unto you messengers of your own who recounted unto you My tokens and warned you of the meeting of this your Day? They will say: We testify against ourselves. And the life of the world beguiled them. And they testify against themselves that they were disbelievers.
## from this verse it appears that there are messengers from amongst djinns; for this reason i am of the opinion that v cannot conclude, from 22:75, that messengers can only be from angels or humans! (-:
No it is not, because the human messnegers can be considered sent to the jinn as well because Allah made them to hear and see us while we can not do that to them, The Quran even gave us an example of some Jinn hearing the Quran and believeing in it
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Quote:
Of course, like the angels of death who deliver death from Allah to everyone of us
# so the "specific message" that is being sent to an individual or a group is "death"?
...by the same token, angels delivering "help" from god are also messengers unto humans; and so are angels delivering "sustenance"...right?
Quote:
Of course the humans had not,
# so are the angels (delivering death and help and sustenance) "messengers" unto humans? or are they not?
Quote:
but the messnegrs must have a rasool from Allah to deliver to them their tasks that they have to do, and the most valid argument here that this Rasool must be an angel whom Allah praised high in His Quran
# do the angels act as rasool only unto the (human) messengers?
...also, it still begs the question: cannot a creation higher than the angels deliver a message from god to the messengers?
Quote:
No it is not, because the human messnegers can be considered sent to the jinn as well
# so are human messengers unto the djinns like "messengers of their own"? god says that humans are sent unto humans, and angels would have been sent unto angels, so it is only fair that djinns would be sent unto djinns!
...still, ignoring the assumption, where is it that humans have been sent as messengers unto djinns? and that these human messengers recounted god's tokens to the djinns and warned them? (-:
Quote:
because Allah made them to hear and see us while we can not do that to them, The Quran even gave us an example of some Jinn hearing the Quran and believeing in it
# the djinns heard the quran -- i don't think their happenning to the hear the quran is the same thing same as the coming of "messengers of their own (who recount god's token and warn them)," which is what god says! (-:
## take care...salam! (-:
Posted:
Wed 02 Jan, 2008 2:12 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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The wrote:
Quote:
Of course, like the angels of death who deliver death from Allah to everyone of us
# so the "specific message" that is being sent to an individual or a group is "death"?
With the angel(s) of death, YES, this is because amessneger can also do a task that been assigned to, like the two angels who write our deeds and like the angels who were sent to destroy the people of Lut
The wrote:
...by the same token, angels delivering "help" from god are also messengers unto humans; and so are angels delivering "sustenance"...right?
100% regarding help however not sure about delivering "sustenance"
Quote:
Of course the humans had not,
The wrote:
# so are the angels (delivering death and help and sustenance) "messengers" unto humans? or are they not?
100% regarding help and other tasks, like causing someone to die
Quote:
but the messnegrs must have a rasool from Allah to deliver to them their tasks that they have to do, and the most valid argument here that this Rasool must be an angel whom Allah praised high in His Quran
The wrote:
# do the angels act as rasool only unto the (human) messengers?
well, the Quran told us that the angels will come down to the righteous, how, I have no idea, however for the human messnegrs, yes the Quran stated that Allah sends messengers to them, and that can not another human messneger, it's just plain stupidity to send a human messneger to another human messneger to be honest
The wrote:
...also, it still begs the question: cannot a creation higher than the angels deliver a message from god to the messengers?
That is if Allah told us about it, however He only told us that He appoint messengers from the angels or the humans
however what you are doing is assuming the unknown, you can't even say what Jebril is, you are only assuming that he is unknown creature
Quote:
No it is not, because the human messnegers can be considered sent to the jinn as well
The wrote:
# so are human messengers unto the djinns like "messengers of their own"? god says that humans are sent unto humans, and angels would have been sent unto angels, so it is only fair that djinns would be sent unto djinns!
Again that is if angels live on earth, an angel messenger will be sent to them, however what was sent as a messneger is not for the humans rather for the human prophets to know their tasks that been assigned to them
The wrote:
...still, ignoring the assumption, where is it that humans have been sent as messengers unto djinns?
In sura Al Jinns we read that some of them heard the Quran and believed in it, now I have to say they heard it from humans because the Quran was sent to a human and propagated from there
The wrote:
and that these human messengers recounted god's tokens to the djinns and warned them? (-:
Well, Allah didn't tell us that, but He told us that they heard the Quran and believed in it and again they must have heard it from humans
Quote:
because Allah made them to hear and see us while we can not do that to them, The Quran even gave us an example of some Jinn hearing the Quran and believeing in it
The wrote:
# the djinns heard the quran -- i don't think their happenning to the hear the quran is the same thing same as the coming of "messengers of their own (who recount god's token and warn them)," which is what god says! (-:
## take care...salam! (-:
again, you are talking unknown, I only talk according to the Quran evidences, and I can't believe that Allah mention Jebril and you suggest that it is a totally different creature that Allah never told us about
Now if you think considering Jebril as an angel is a big mistake, I say considering him an unknown creature has to be a similar mistake in magnitude if not more
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Quote:
With the angel(s) of death, YES, this is because amessneger can also do a task that been assigned to, like the two angels who write our deeds and like the angels who were sent to destroy the people of Lut
100% regarding help however not sure about delivering "sustenance"
100% regarding help and other tasks, like causing someone to die
# if u say god has sent angels as rasool to humankind, then it is perhaps contradicting 17:95! (-:
Quote:
well, the Quran told us that the angels will come down to the righteous, how, I have no idea, however for the human messnegrs, yes the Quran stated that Allah sends messengers to them, and that can not another human messneger, it's just plain stupidity to send a human messneger to another human messneger to be honest
# my question was: can angels come as messengers unto people other than prophets? from what u said, it seems u believe they cannot! according to u, angels acts as messengers (only) to prophets, and the prophets act as messengers to other humans!
Quote:
That is if Allah told us about it, however He only told us that He appoint messengers from the angels or the humans
# god did not tell us that it appoints messengers *only* from angels or humans...u have, for some reason, added the word "only" in the interpretation of the quranic verse!
Quote:
however what you are doing is assuming the unknown, you can't even say what Jebril is, you are only assuming that he is unknown creature
# i am proposing gabriel is other than an angel...and that, i think, is safer than adding words while interpreting the text of the quran to make it agreeable to what ahadith clain...or so i think! (-:
Quote:
Again that is if angels live on earth, an angel messenger will be sent to them, however what was sent as a messneger is not for the humans rather for the human prophets to know their tasks that been assigned to them
In sura Al Jinns we read that some of them heard the Quran and believed in it, now I have to say they heard it from humans because the Quran was sent to a human and propagated from there
Well, Allah didn't tell us that, but He told us that they heard the Quran and believed in it and again they must have heard it from humans
# god clearly says to men and djinns that they have had messengers come unto them from *amongst their own*! in another verse god says that a human messenger for humans; an angel messenger for angels! from these two verses it is very clear that a djinn messenger to djinns is a very real possibility! if v do not authorize the addition of "only" to 22:75, there is no reason to deny this! (-:
Quote:
again, you are talking unknown, I only talk according to the Quran evidences, and I can't believe that Allah mention Jebril and you suggest that it is a totally different creature that Allah never told us about
# i am, very simply, challenging a belief that is based purely on ahadith and has *no* support from the quran! and if v do not add "only" to 22:75, there is no doubt that there is nothing from the quran to even remotely support the ahadith!
# on the other hand, from 17:95 and 6:130 v can conclude that there are djinn messengers!
...also...v have the instance of the crow delivering the "message" regarding the burial of dead; so here v have a crow acting as a "messenger"!
## ...so why not accept what v have from the quran rather than adding a word in the interpretation!
Quote:
Now if you think considering Jebril as an angel is a big mistake, I say considering him an unknown creature has to be a similar mistake in magnitude if not more
# i would simply call gabriel the ruh...nothing more or less than that! (-:
...what it is, how it operates, its nature...i have no idea! (-:
## take care, bro...salam! (-:
Posted:
Thu 03 Jan, 2008 3:06 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Salam brother The
we should agree to disagree, I do believe logically that Jegril is 100% an angel
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Quote:
we should agree to disagree, I do believe logically that Jegril is 100% an angel
# yups...i agree to disagreeing! : grin :
...and i really appreciate ur input...it has allowed me to expand my thinking regarding the subject! (-:
## take care, bud...salam! (-:
Posted:
Thu 03 Jan, 2008 4:52 pm
Rigel Pawn
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Hi,
This is not fair 'agree to disagree'. One of you has to be wrong. Please restart, with 10 sentences no longer than 255 chracters each. Can quote verses from quran. If you don't want to do it for yourself, do it for us, the readers!
Thankyou!
Posted:
Fri 04 Jan, 2008 1:55 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Rigel wrote:
Hi,
This is not fair 'agree to disagree'. One of you has to be wrong. Please restart, with 10 sentences no longer than 255 chracters each. Can quote verses from quran. If you don't want to do it for yourself, do it for us, the readers!
Thankyou!
Salam mate
I actually respect brother The ideas in understanding Islam, he is a good asset to FI, however I could not agree iwth him for the following reasons:
1) Allah is not going to mention Jebril while he is an unknown creature to us
2) Allah said that He appoints messengers from the Ins and Angels,
3) if we assume that He may be appointing from the Jinn as well because He did not deny it, then we put ourselves in the position of saying things against Allah that we don't know
4) Gebril can not be a human messenger for many logical reaqsons
5) In all the hearsay hadith, Jebril was always an angel and nothing but an angel.
Therefore, it is safer to assume that he is an angel than assuming he is an unknown creature
I can't put myself in a position of rejecting all the fact of hadith because I reject most of it, as I always say, I will acceot anything from anyone as long as it does not contradict the Quran, now for me considering him any other creature must contradict the Quran because Allah told us that He appoints messnegers from the Ins and Angels, while he never said ONLY from them, under Arabic "ONLY" is not required, in fact He never used such word to tell us to do a specific action ONLY in a specific manner, He just tells us the fact without using the word "ONLY", it's logical
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Quote:
This is not fair 'agree to disagree'. One of you has to be wrong. Please restart, with 10 sentences no longer than 255 chracters each. Can quote verses from quran. If you don't want to do it for yourself, do it for us, the readers!
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
however I could not agree iwth him for the following reasons:
1) Allah is not going to mention Jebril while he is an unknown creature to us
2) Allah said that He appoints messengers from the Ins and Angels,
3) if we assume that He may be appointing from the Jinn as well because He did not deny it, then we put ourselves in the position of saying things against Allah that we don't know
4) Gebril can not be a human messenger for many logical reaqsons
5) In all the hearsay hadith, Jebril was always an angel and nothing but an angel.
Therefore, it is safer to assume that he is an angel than assuming he is an unknown creature
I can't put myself in a position of rejecting all the fact of hadith because I reject most of it, as I always say, I will acceot anything from anyone as long as it does not contradict the Quran, now for me considering him any other creature must contradict the Quran because Allah told us that He appoints messnegers from the Ins and Angels, while he never said ONLY from them, under Arabic "ONLY" is not required, in fact He never used such word to tell us to do a specific action ONLY in a specific manner, He just tells us the fact without using the word "ONLY", it's logical
# 1 of the contentions here is over the hidden "only" in the verse 22:75; v do have, according to me, some very relevant verses in 6:130 (messengers sent to djinns and humans from amongst themselves) and 17:95 (human messenger for humans; angel messenger for angels), but the assumed "only" is the obstruction v need to get over! further, in verse 5:31, v have a crow acting as a "messenger"!
...in 2:130, god says that it has "chosen abraham in the world"...should v understand that *only* abraham has been chosen in the world?
# as far as i know, there have been no instances of gabriel being called an "angel (or archangel)" even in the old testament; it is in the new testament wherein a distinction has been made between the "holy spirit" and gabriel, and gabriel has been introduced (or re-introduced) as an "angel (or archangel)"! but from a quranic point of view it does apear that the holy spirit and gabriel are the same entity! however, the faithful ahadith writers seem to have blissfully incorporated the christian distinction regarding gabriel into their own books!
...if v let alone all extra-quranic sources, and concentrate on the quran, v do not find gabriel being addressed as, or counted among, malaika! in the quran, gabriel seems to have been called ruh alameen and ruh alqudoosi; it probably is gabriel who has been called "our spirit" in 19:17; and gabriel is probably the ruh that descends along with the angels on the night of qadr!
# i am still open to gabriel being an angel...if i come across something compelling; but just because it is found in ahadith (especially comical ones) i won't be buying it! who or what gabriel is, i still admit to not having much, if at all any, clue!
## take care, bros...salam! (-:
Posted:
Fri 04 Jan, 2008 8:31 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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[quote="The"]
Quote:
This is not fair 'agree to disagree'. One of you has to be wrong. Please restart, with 10 sentences no longer than 255 chracters each. Can quote verses from quran. If you don't want to do it for yourself, do it for us, the readers!
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
however I could not agree iwth him for the following reasons:
1) Allah is not going to mention Jebril while he is an unknown creature to us
2) Allah said that He appoints messengers from the Ins and Angels,
3) if we assume that He may be appointing from the Jinn as well because He did not deny it, then we put ourselves in the position of saying things against Allah that we don't know
4) Gebril can not be a human messenger for many logical reaqsons
5) In all the hearsay hadith, Jebril was always an angel and nothing but an angel.
Therefore, it is safer to assume that he is an angel than assuming he is an unknown creature
I can't put myself in a position of rejecting all the fact of hadith because I reject most of it, as I always say, I will acceot anything from anyone as long as it does not contradict the Quran, now for me considering him any other creature must contradict the Quran because Allah told us that He appoints messnegers from the Ins and Angels, while he never said ONLY from them, under Arabic "ONLY" is not required, in fact He never used such word to tell us to do a specific action ONLY in a specific manner, He just tells us the fact without using the word "ONLY", it's logical
The wrote:
# 1 of the contentions here is over the hidden "only" in the verse 22:75; v do have, according to me, some very relevant verses in 6:130 (messengers sent to djinns and humans from amongst themselves) and 17:95 (human messenger for humans; angel messenger for angels), but the assumed "only" is the obstruction v need to get over! further, in verse 5:31, v have a crow acting as a "messenger"!
Salam bro
If you look at the women beating verse, you see that we were given three option, 1, 2 and 3, the word only was not used, however that does not mean that we are allowed to go for option 4,5,6,7,8,9,10 etc, i.e. the word "ONLY" is not required to explicitly say that these are the ONLY options, it's logical, at least under the Arabic language
The wrote:
...in 2:130, god says that it has "chosen abraham in the world"...should v understand that *only* abraham has been chosen in the world?
But Allah said in many other verses that He has chosen others, therefore your argument above is not explicit to support your refute
The wrote:
# as far as i know, there have been no instances of gabriel being called an "angel (or archangel)" even in the old testament; it is in the new testament wherein a distinction has been made between the "holy spirit" and gabriel,
Ok, but I will only look at the Quran as evidences, I mentioned the hadith complying with 16:64, which clearly says that the prophet should EXPLAIN to us things that we differ about, now if you consider the fact that we are differing on a Quran issue, then we must refer it to the prophet if we can, now what we have is only these history records called hadith, and in there the prophet referred to Jebril as nothing ut an angel, he even described how many wings that he has and that is more explanantion from him regarding the verse that talks about angel wings
again it is far safer to go that direction than going into an UNKNOWN direction,
your rejection to his angelic status is a bit dangerous BTW, this is because one of things that we are ORDERED to believe in are the ANGELS
we were never asked to believe in something that we have absolutely no idea about, it makes no sense as well makes our god look silly, astaghafar Allah
The wrote:
and gabriel has been introduced (or re-introduced) as an "angel (or archangel)"! but from a quranic point of view it does apear that the holy spirit and gabriel are the same entity! however, the faithful ahadith writers seem to have blissfully incorporated the christian distinction regarding gabriel into their own books!
I have to absolutely not consider what the christians say because for me ther are totally confused, in fact I'm still confused to what they really believe in, no one ever managed to offer me a flawless concept of their belief
The wrote:
...if v let alone all extra-quranic sources, and concentrate on the quran, v do not find gabriel being addressed as, or counted among, malaika! in the quran,
For me he is counted within the angels because Allah chooses messnegers from among the Ins and Malaika, and because he can't be a human, he must be an angel because he was a messenger, the hadith comes in hand to give such understanding a bit of merit, however and believe it or not, if the hadith said somethig else regarding his angelic status, I would have dismissed the hadith in rubbish bin straightaway
The wrote:
gabriel seems to have been called ruh alameen and ruh alqudoosi; it probably is gabriel who has been called "our spirit" in 19:17; and gabriel is probably the ruh that descends along with the angels on the night of qadr!
I believe he was called with other high rannked titles that Allah gave it to him, our spirit, may be understood as OUE REPRENTATIVE, the bottom line that by sending him to do something, then he has to be a messenger and according to the Quran, Allah chooses messnegers from the angels and ins, He never told us that He chooses messengers from another type of creature nor from an unknown creature.
The wrote:
# i am still open to gabriel being an angel...if i come across something compelling; but just because it is found in ahadith (especially comical ones) i won't be buying it! who or what gabriel is, i still admit to not having much, if at all any, clue!
## take care, bros...salam! (-:
Possibly we were not given muuch as a matter of testing thoose who will doubt, I don't know mate but I see it as a possibility
bear in mind that you are required to believe in the followings:
1) Allah
2) the human messengers
3) the angels
4) the holy scriptures
5) the JD
Jebril, can not be, 1 nor 4 neither 5
therefore Jebril has to be from 2 or from 3, unless we are not required to believe in such thing called Jebril
now we know that Jebril must be a messenger of Allah, therefore he must be from 2, however we also know that he can be a human, herefore he must belong to 3, this does not make him a non messngers because we also know that Allah chooses messngers from among the angel
I see it very compelling dear brother, no arrogance on my side
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# i am satisfied with the way this discussion has gone and am pretty sure that there is nothing other than ahadith to endorse gabriel as an angel or inferior to muhammad; however, i will comment on some of ur remarks which i find surprising! (-:
Quote:
your rejection to his angelic status is a bit dangerous BTW, this is because one of things that we are ORDERED to believe in are the ANGELS
# i have never rejected angels;so it is dangerous if u are trying to make it appear so!
## even more dangerous if u r saying that god has ordered to believe that gabriel is an angel; to add r personal wishes to god's list of commands is the last thing v want to do...i am sure! (-:
Quote:
we were never asked to believe in something that we have absolutely no idea about, it makes no sense as well makes our god look silly, astaghafar Allah
# why do v want to have an idea about the nature of gabriel? is it not enough that god has made it clear that gabriel brings the message to the prophet; has honored it as "ruh alameen" and "ruh alqudusi;" and vowed enmity to its enemies? why add words to god's words, and claim that without the added words god would look silly? (-:
Quote:
But Allah said in many other verses that He has chosen others, therefore your argument above is not explicit to support your refute
# i haven't yet come across the verses where god has chosen others in the world...please provide us with the verses!
...till then, according to ur interpretation of 22:75, god has chosen *only* abraham *in the world*; has chosen *only* moses over *men*; has chosen *only* adam, noah, and familes of abraham and imran over *alaalameen*; and chosen *only* mary over the *women of the world*!
## myself...i am more than satisfied with r discussion; and i am as yet not in the mood to accept ahadith and non-muslim texts, nor to add their beliefs to the list of god's commands! (-:
# take care, bro...salam! (-:
Posted:
Sun 06 Jan, 2008 5:03 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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The wrote:
# i am satisfied with the way this discussion has gone and am pretty sure that there is nothing other than ahadith to endorse gabriel as an angel or inferior to muhammad; however, i will comment on some of ur remarks which i find surprising! (-:
Salam mate
I found it really silly that both me and you argue such matter, but if we just consider it a friendly discussion, I still find no fruit that will come out of it, this is because you are right, it was never exclusive that Jebril was mentioned as an angel in the Quran, therefore you believe that he was not, ignoring the whole history records that we can analyse, while for me I believe that he is based on my acceptance to the history records (note that I don't call it hadith), now the only thing that forces me to look for any history records regarding the prophet is the Quran, I have already presented 16:64 as a string argument that one of the roles of the prophet was to EXPLAIN to us things that we differ in it, and I'm sure your question was raised to the prophet himself by others during his time, now when I looked at the history records, I found that they make sense and is in full compliance with 16:64 and other verses that I will show later on inshaallah
Quote:
your rejection to his angelic status is a bit dangerous BTW, this is because one of things that we are ORDERED to believe in are the ANGELS
The wrote:
# i have never rejected angels;so it is dangerous if u are trying to make it appear so!
I didn't mean that you reject the whole angels, what i meant that you reject that Jebril is an angel based on the history records which will make you questioned under 16:64 ans other verses that I will show later on
now if Jebril is an angel and you will use the excuse to Allah (if allowed) that you totally ignored the history records and a couple of verses in the Quran that clearly say the followings:
1) the prophet should explain to us things that we differ about
2) the prophet should teach us, Al Kitab and Al Hikmah and THINGS THAT WE DON'T KNOW
I really don't know what reply you may get, I just felt that it may be a dangerous way to go
assume now the same circumstances but for myself, i.e. Jebril was not an angel and I believed that he is and I will be questioned by Allah, if allowed to defend myself, believe me I will have far better defence than yours and yet by using His own words.
The wrote:
## even more dangerous if u r saying that god has ordered to believe that gabriel is an angel;
Not at all that I meant that
what I meant IN CASE IT WILL BE SOMETHING THAT WE WILL BE QUESTIONED REGARDING IT
The wrote:
to add r personal wishes to god's list of commands is the last thing v want to do...i am sure! (-
of course
however, I consider it silly from a god to mention to us a very important creature while not telling or at least not telling his messengers, what sort of creature he is, it makes no sense to me, therefore using Allah own words, I have listened to what we heard about the prophet and qualified iit using the Quran as I presented in all my previous comments
Quote:
we were never asked to believe in something that we have absolutely no idea about, it makes no sense as well makes our god look silly, astaghafar Allah
The wrote:
# why do v want to have an idea about the nature of gabriel?
Because that is what makes sense for the type of God in the Quran, for me and this is totally personal opinion, Allah won't mention a creature with such important role without telling us directly through scriptures or through His messengers of his creature status, for me I can't accept it
The vision I have for our God, that He is way too smart to act in such manner regarding Jebril, if he chose not to say directly and just a few hints then allowing His messengers to explain it, then that is very acceptable in my book because the prophets sent are not just couriers to deliver a book, they all delivered a package, that includes, The Book, The Wisdom and THINGS THAT WE DON'T KNOW
it is actually very degrading to the messengers to think of them as nothing but couriers
The wrote:
is it not enough that god has made it clear that gabriel brings the message to the prophet;
And that must not be an unknown creature, it�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s just plain silliness, Jebril was not a courier eaith, Jebril was doing many things and has an important role in the whole universe, and I believe the whole universe is managed by a massive team if ranked angels, everything, even the storms, the clouds, the rain even hell, that is a logical belief that I had on my own, now I was delighted to read in the hadith that my thinking is the same. I agree that does not conclusively mean that I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m right, however this is what I absolutely feel comfortable to believe in. it is just impossible for me to think if Jebril as an unknown creature
Remember the verse about the wings of the angels, in such verse we read that the angels differ in the number of wings they were given, again the hadith complies perfectly with such verse when the prophet described Jebril to his companions
The wrote:
has honored it as "ruh alameen" and "ruh alqudusi;" and vowed enmity to its enemies?
Exactly, and in such verses Allah warned us to be an enemy for Jebril it is just plain stupidity that Allah will be warning us to be an enemy for an unknown creature. It makes no sense to me nor that I consider it a case of saying things against Allah that are wrong, I look at all evidences then with the Quran on top, I can find answers realy easy instead of submitting to ignorance by saying I will just accept that he is an unknown creature other than angels, humans and jinns, these are the only creatures Allah mentioned the most in the Quran btw, I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??d rather believe that he was a human or a jinn rather than believing that he was unknown, however I managed through logic to dismiss the possibility that he may be a human or a jinn, therefore for me he must be an angel
The wrote:
why add words to god's words, and claim that without the added words god would look silly? (-:
Yes because Jberil has an important role in the universe, as well Allah asked us not to be an enemy of such creature(s), and it is our right to know from Him or from the messengers He sent, what type of creature is that.
Quote:
But Allah said in many other verses that He has chosen others, therefore your argument above is not explicit to support your refute
The wrote:
# i haven't yet come across the verses where god has chosen others in the world...please provide us with the verses!
I meant chosen messengers from the angels, i.e. He mentioned other Rusul from among the angels, is that what you understood?
The wrote:
...till then, according to ur interpretation of 22:75, god has chosen *only* abraham *in the world*; has chosen *only* moses over *men*; has chosen *only* adam, noah, and familes of abraham and imran over *alaalameen*; and chosen *only* mary over the *women of the world*!
Actually, my understanding with the word ONLY may fit perfectly, this is because everyone had unique role to the other. Even unique miracles and messages, therefore that is 100% logically right, He ONLY chose Inrahim to do a specific task and ONLY chose Moses to do another specific task. Etc etc
The wrote:
## myself...i am more than satisfied with r discussion;
Indeed it�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s great, but I don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t have the time at the moment mate, I love dialoguing with you indeed, however, I reckon it will be more fruitful that I put more effort into the translation of the Quran and you give me a helping hand when you can, there is a lot to do mate
The wrote:
and i am as yet not in the mood to accept ahadith and non-muslim texts, nor to add their beliefs to the list of god's commands! (-:
# take care, bro...salam! (-:
Look mate, my philosophy regarding Islam is very simple indeed, NO COMLICATION whatsoever, I actually to simplify it as much as I can, however I find myself dragged into things (remember free-minds days) that really consume my energy because it is not simple any more, rather too complicated and I hate that by nature. This actually complies with the Quran 100%, remember the verses that Allah says He wants to make it easy on us, that ease must be covering understanding the religion and when we do so we should understand the burden on us and that is when we should recognise how easy it is or how hard it is
For me mate the belief is the easiest things, it can happen on the fly, like in a second, now to submit this is a life struggle mate and that is what I want to concentrate on knowing that I already passed halfway, in fact I consider myself at 42 that I passed close to 2/3. therefore I will have absolutely no time to review my simple belief because that was done with years and years ago, I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m currently is the submission state and this is very tough mate, that is why I was delighted to be permanently banned from free-minds, as well I will be delighted to be permanently banned from faithfreedom, in fact bro, I mock around way too much and at 42, this is bad
Status: Age: 75 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Jun 12, 2007
Posts: 614
Post subject: Re: gabriel and michael
Salaams, The & all
I was too busy at the Council of Ex-Muslims' site, which I quit this evening and did not write on this. I think Rigel has a good point and we should not agree to disagree. Instead, we should try to address the topic.
I ahve the following comments and points to make:
The wrote:
i *think* majority of sunnis and shiites hold muhammad to be the greatest (or atleast co-greatest) of all the created beings!
...so, effectively, muhammad, for them, is "greater" than gabriel and michael; i have read some traditions which, i feel, even belittle these two servants of god!
## i cannot swear to this, but i think i have read a claim that every human is created higher than the angels; and the proof provided was the verse where the angels are said to prostrate unto adam! at the very least, adam is considered superior to gabriel and michael, based on the same verse!
I believe this is mostly a Persian and Sub-Continental thingy. The words used by most people is "Ashraful-Makhlooqaat", meaning, "The most exalted of all creatures". We have been commanded in Qur'aan not to grade ranks even for prophets, vide "Laa nufar-riqo baina ahadim-minhum" meaning,"We do not differentiate between any of them".
Personally, I have never compared Prophet with Jibra'eel. Allah addresses Jibra'eel as Rooh and Ruhul-Ameen. Ruhul-Quds was the noble soul granted to Esa, not to Jibra'eel. Please correct me if I am wrong on this.
Angels are pure, powerful and they do as they are told. "Yaf'aloona ma yu'maroon" They do not disobey Allah. However, they have no desires or passions like man and never fall. But man has been given the brain and knowledge and using that man can climb very high, reaching God and also can fall below. That is the free will which was given to man, but angels never were granted this free-will.
When all were asked to bow down to man, it was not an act of worship or surrender to man. It was to acknowledge Allah's new creation that is Adam.
There is nothing much mentioned in Qur'aan about Jibra'eel and Mika'eel. All we have is what came through the early Jewish and Christian converts who embraced Islam and stories about angels came into our collections.
The wrote:
...my question to the people in here is: do u subscribe to this? that muhammad and adam are "greater" than the angels? and that they are "greater" than gabriel and michael?
I do not and we should not. The reason is in verse, "Walaa taqfo ma laisa laka bayhe ilm", meaning "Don't guess about what you have no knowledge." In Urdu or Hindi, the exact meaning is "Tuk-kah mat maaro" and I hope Rigel will understand this.
The wrote:
i hope not to create a fitna, but my take is that gabriel and michael are, at least, not "lesser" than any human!
No worries. Jibra'eel, Mika'eel and all angels have a fixed job and position. Man can achieve greater heights in terms of getting closer to Allah and man can also fall down into an abyss. That is why in the verse,"Al-lazeena yahmayloonal arshaa wa mun haula", Surah Momin, does not refer to angels by name. It includes all.
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