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I found it really silly that both me and you argue such matter, but if we just consider it a friendly discussion, I still find no fruit that will come out of it, this is because you are right, it was never exclusive that Jebril was mentioned as an angel in the Quran, therefore you believe that he was not, ignoring the whole history records that we can analyse, while for me I believe that he is based on my acceptance to the history records (note that I don't call it hadith), now the only thing that forces me to look for any history records regarding the prophet is the Quran, I have already presented 16:64 as a string argument that one of the roles of the prophet was to EXPLAIN to us things that we differ in it, and I'm sure your question was raised to the prophet himself by others during his time, now when I looked at the history records, I found that they make sense and is in full compliance with 16:64 and other verses that I will show later on inshaallah


# u r right...sincere apologies if my posts come across as being confrontational...i ll be a lil more cheerful...inshallah! (-:

Quote:
I didn't mean that you reject the whole angels, what i meant that you reject that Jebril is an angel based on the history records which will make you questioned under 16:64 ans other verses that I will show later on


# ...cool! (-:

Quote:
now if Jebril is an angel and you will use the excuse to Allah (if allowed) that you totally ignored the history records and a couple of verses in the Quran that clearly say the followings:

1) the prophet should explain to us things that we differ about
2) the prophet should teach us, Al Kitab and Al Hikmah and THINGS THAT WE DON'T KNOW

I really don't know what reply you may get, I just felt that it may be a dangerous way to go

assume now the same circumstances but for myself, i.e. Jebril was not an angel and I believed that he is and I will be questioned by Allah, if allowed to defend myself, believe me I will have far better defence than yours and yet by using His own words.


# ...inshallah! (-:

Quote:
Not at all that I meant that

what I meant IN CASE IT WILL BE SOMETHING THAT WE WILL BE QUESTIONED REGARDING IT


# hmmm...!


Quote:
of course

however, I consider it silly from a god to mention to us a very important creature while not telling or at least not telling his messengers, what sort of creature he is, it makes no sense to me, therefore using Allah own words, I have listened to what we heard about the prophet and qualified iit using the Quran as I presented in all my previous comments


Because that is what makes sense for the type of God in the Quran, for me and this is totally personal opinion, Allah won't mention a creature with such important role without telling us directly through scriptures or through His messengers of his creature status, for me I can't accept it

The vision I have for our God, that He is way too smart to act in such manner regarding Jebril, if he chose not to say directly and just a few hints then allowing His messengers to explain it, then that is very acceptable in my book because the prophets sent are not just couriers to deliver a book, they all delivered a package, that includes, The Book, The Wisdom and THINGS THAT WE DON'T KNOW


# cool! (-:


Quote:
it is actually very degrading to the messengers to think of them as nothing but couriers


# yeah!


Quote:
And that must not be an unknown creature, it’s just plain silliness, Jebril was not a courier eaith, Jebril was doing many things and has an important role in the whole universe, and I believe the whole universe is managed by a massive team if ranked angels, everything, even the storms, the clouds, the rain even hell, that is a logical belief that I had on my own, now I was delighted to read in the hadith that my thinking is the same. I agree that does not conclusively mean that I’m right, however this is what I absolutely feel comfortable to believe in. it is just impossible for me to think if Jebril as an unknown creature


# ...ummm!

Quote:
Remember the verse about the wings of the angels, in such verse we read that the angels differ in the number of wings they were given, again the hadith complies perfectly with such verse when the prophet described Jebril to his companions


# ...just because the quran says angels have wings and a hadith says gabriel has wings, to link them and conclude that gabriel is an angel does not sound convincing...i think!


...perhaps v can find, if v want, plenty of ahadith which bear faint resemblance to a quranic ayat, and would yet be rejectable!

Quote:
35:1

Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, Who appointeth the angels messengers having wings two, three and four. He multiplieth in creation what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.


# ...it seems that angels have *only* two, three or four wings (or pairs if u like), and the ahadith have gabriel as having 600 wings!

## ...humans and apes have two hands and legs each...i don't think it matters much if angels have wings and gabriel too has wings (though i am not sure if gabriel has)!


Quote:
Exactly, and in such verses Allah warned us to be an enemy for Jebril it is just plain stupidity that Allah will be warning us to be an enemy for an unknown creature. It makes no sense to me nor that I consider it a case of saying things against Allah that are wrong, I look at all evidences then with the Quran on top, I can find answers realy easy instead of submitting to ignorance by saying I will just accept that he is an unknown creature other than angels, humans and jinns, these are the only creatures Allah mentioned the most in the Quran btw, I’d rather believe that he was a human or a jinn rather than believing that he was unknown, however I managed through logic to dismiss the possibility that he may be a human or a jinn, therefore for me he must be an angel


Yes because Jberil has an important role in the universe, as well Allah asked us not to be an enemy of such creature(s), and it is our right to know from Him or from the messengers He sent, what type of creature is that.


# and how will r knowing its nature benefit our faith? surely, v are not to question (nor list r rights to) god! i certainly don't agree with this! in fact, this is one of the most surprising things i have heard, especially coming from u!

# still...can u provide a description of angels (from the quran), other than that they have wings? (-:


Quote:
I meant chosen messengers from the angels, i.e. He mentioned other Rusul from among the angels, is that what you understood?


# i thut u meant to say that there are verses where god has chosen others (besides abraham) in the world! (-:


Quote:
Actually, my understanding with the word ONLY may fit perfectly, this is because everyone had unique role to the other. Even unique miracles and messages, therefore that is 100% logically right, He ONLY chose Inrahim to do a specific task and ONLY chose Moses to do another specific task. Etc etc


# ...however, the verses do not say god chose abraham or moses for *specific tasks*...so it would follow that the verse simply states that god chose *only* abraham in the world (without mentioning anything specific)...likewise for moses being chosen above *men* (w/o a mention of any specific task)!


Quote:
Indeed it’s great, but I don’t have the time at the moment mate, I love dialoguing with you indeed, however, I reckon it will be more fruitful that I put more effort into the translation of the Quran and you give me a helping hand when you can, there is a lot to do mate


# i would love to contribute...but i am not up to it! and honestly i am too scared...but if u ever need an opinion i will try to give my 2 cents! (-:


Quote:
Look mate, my philosophy regarding Islam is very simple indeed, NO COMLICATION whatsoever, I actually to simplify it as much as I can, however I find myself dragged into things (remember free-minds days) that really consume my energy because it is not simple any more, rather too complicated and I hate that by nature. This actually complies with the Quran 100%, remember the verses that Allah says He wants to make it easy on us, that ease must be covering understanding the religion and when we do so we should understand the burden on us and that is when we should recognise how easy it is or how hard it is

For me mate the belief is the easiest things, it can happen on the fly, like in a second, now to submit this is a life struggle mate and that is what I want to concentrate on knowing that I already passed halfway, in fact I consider myself at 42 that I passed close to 2/3. therefore I will have absolutely no time to review my simple belief because that was done with years and years ago, I’m currently is the submission state and this is very tough mate, that is why I was delighted to be permanently banned from free-minds, as well I will be delighted to be permanently banned from faithfreedom, in fact bro, I mock around way too much and at 42, this is bad


# ...i am not sure i would even care to bring this up on faithfreedom or free-minds or any other non-muslim site!

# i don't know what any of u here think of the below-quoted verse; however, i believe it refers to gabriel; and since u mentioned having knowledge of the nature of gabriel, it might be relevant!

Quote:
17:85

They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.


# whoever or whatever the ruh is, it is from the command of god...so v have to believe by it...and the verse says that v have not have been given knowledge about it except a little...and i don't think that makes god look silly! (-:


Quote:
Take care mate


# u too, bud...i hope i dunn sound *too* bullheaded! (-:

...but i agree with u that v have discussed this enuf and drawn r own conclusions...v r likely to repeat rselves if v carry on...i am now more than 50% sure that gabriel is more exalted than angels; if i have anything worthwhile to offer i will post here again! the rest i think v have gone thru: 6:130, 17:95, and the crow "messenger" being my money's worth! and for 22:75 i offered 2:130; beyond that might well be superfluous!

## salam, bro...take care! (-:
Post Posted:
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 7:54 am
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I was too busy at the Council of Ex-Muslims' site, which I quit this evening and did not write on this. I think Rigel has a good point and we should not agree to disagree. Instead, we should try to address the topic.

I ahve the following comments and points to make:


# welcomings! (-:

Quote:

I believe this is mostly a Persian and Sub-Continental thingy. The words used by most people is "Ashraful-Makhlooqaat", meaning, "The most exalted of all creatures". We have been commanded in Qur'aan not to grade ranks even for prophets, vide "Laa nufar-riqo baina ahadim-minhum" meaning,"We do not differentiate between any of them".


# far as i know these are universal shiite and sunni beliefs (there might be some exceptins..still);

...and i think, or so i should, that there are 2 verses which they draw from (besides plentiful ahadith):

# ...the verse where angels are said to prostrate unto adam

## ...where humankind is said to have been created "fee ahsaani taqwim"

## talking of "ashraful makhluqat," i thut it translates better as "most ethical/noble"...or so i think...!: not sure : :-S

Quote:
Personally, I have never compared Prophet with Jibra'eel. Allah addresses Jibra'eel as Rooh and Ruhul-Ameen. Ruhul-Quds was the noble soul granted to Esa, not to Jibra'eel. Please correct me if I am wrong on this.


# from 16:102, it appears ruh alqudusi descended to the prophet; and from 2:96 it does appear that gabriel is ruh alqudusi! but yes, what has been on my mind all along is whether gabriel can be shown to be ruh alameen and ruh alqudusi! i think "yes,"...still!

Quote:
Angels are pure, powerful and they do as they are told. "Yaf'aloona ma yu'maroon" They do not disobey Allah. However, they have no desires or passions like man and never fall. But man has been given the brain and knowledge and using that man can climb very high, reaching God and also can fall below. That is the free will which was given to man, but angels never were granted this free-will.


# hmmm...a earnest question: what exactly is free-will?

...and cuz the angels do not disobey, should it mean they do not have the option to disobey?

Quote:
When all were asked to bow down to man, it was not an act of worship or surrender to man. It was to acknowledge Allah's new creation that is Adam.

There is nothing much mentioned in Qur'aan about Jibra'eel and Mika'eel. All we have is what came through the early Jewish and Christian converts who embraced Islam and stories about angels came into our collections.


# also probably stuff from those who did not embrace islam!


Quote:
I do not and we should not. The reason is in verse, "Walaa taqfo ma laisa laka bayhe ilm", meaning "Don't guess about what you have no knowledge." In Urdu or Hindi, the exact meaning is "Tuk-kah mat maaro" and I hope Rigel will understand this.


# but isn't there a question...where to draw the line? (-:


Quote:
No worries. Jibra'eel, Mika'eel and all angels have a fixed job and position. Man can achieve greater heights in terms of getting closer to Allah and man can also fall down into an abyss. That is why in the verse,"Al-lazeena yahmayloonal arshaa wa mun haula", Surah Momin, does not refer to angels by name. It includes all.


# god alone knows...*head spinning*

Quote:
This was my two cents.


# much appreciated! (-:

## salaams...good night, bro...take care! (-:
Post Posted:
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 8:01 am
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BMZ;
I do not and we should not. The reason is in verse, "Walaa taqfo ma laisa laka bayhe ilm", meaning "Don't guess about what you have no knowledge." In Urdu or Hindi, the exact meaning is "Tuk-kah mat maaro" and I hope Rigel will understand this.


Salam AB, THE & BMZ,

Thankyou brothers for brining the argument to an end. And as brother BMZ has translated "Walaa taqfo ma laisa laka bayhe ilm" - 'Tuka mat maroo'. It really fits well brother THE, you brought a discussion which you yourself were not sure about, neither you had any evidence. Sorry brother THE but this time you sounded like firon-minds, who just rejects history and hates suni/shia.

Letme tell you muslims are more hindu, more chirstian, more jew, than suni/shia thingy you mentioned, we share more culture and false beliefs than you can imagine, so why bash poor common people who are very illitrate and most of whom can hardly feed their families two times a day. One should consider ground realities instead of labeling whitehouse style.

THE
# but isn't there a question...where to draw the line? (-:


Brother the line was there where you started this topic Smile
I personally think this Jebril issue was wastage of time, since nothing new or concrete, neither I guess it matters to us today. Thankyou anyway brother because theres always something to learn from these discussions.

Okeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey guess thats enough, lets goto arcade and shoot some ET, else you will shoot me Wink

Just like brother AB says, Cheers!!!!!!
Post Posted:
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 11:56 am
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AhmedBahgat
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The wrote:
# u r right...sincere apologies if my posts come across as being confrontational...i ll be a lil more cheerful...inshallah! (-:



Salam mate,

I will just reply to the above as I need to go

firstly no confrontation in here, you stated your opinion and I stated mine then I suggested to agree to disagree

secondly, no cheering either, I could not understand what you meant but it sounded a bit not right to me

thirdly, I will continue discussing this subject and will add one more long comment when I have time, I have already finished the outlne of this comment

salam

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Mon 07 Jan, 2008 2:05 pm
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The
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Thankyou brothers for brining the argument to an end. And as brother BMZ has translated "Walaa taqfo ma laisa laka bayhe ilm" - 'Tuka mat maroo'. It really fits well brother THE, you brought a discussion which you yourself were not sure about, neither you had any evidence. Sorry brother THE but this time you sounded like firon-minds, who just rejects history and hates suni/shia.


# i am not sure which history u are talking about...if it is the one penned exclusively by bukhari and co. then i am fine without believing in it!

## hates shiites and sunnis? are u sure u r talking about me?

...if u consider rejecting gabriel's alleged inferiority to muhammad (which is a claim mostly based on crappy ahadith) as hating sunnis and shiites, then i cannot help this perception!

### why not discuss something i am not comfortable with?

...as for evidence, i think there are shiites and sunnis who believe djinns have messengers of their own...i am sure about the shiites! i wonder if u will now accept that djinns have messengers of their own (refer to puya-ali's commentary for 6:130)

# also: if djinns were already a community before adam was created then who was a messenger unto them?

Quote:
Letme tell you muslims are more hindu, more chirstian, more jew, than suni/shia thingy you mentioned, we share more culture and false beliefs than you can imagine, so why bash poor common people who are very illitrate and most of whom can hardly feed their families two times a day. One should consider ground realities instead of labeling whitehouse style.


# i think u are having some misunderstanding here...i have maintained all along that shiites and sunnis are muslims too; i have never labelled them as anything save when they have shown hostility...and i don't think i have called them firon-minds or mushrikeen or whatever!

Quote:
Brother the line was there where you started this topic
I personally think this Jebril issue was wastage of time, since nothing new or concrete, neither I guess it matters to us today. Thankyou anyway brother because theres always something to learn from these discussions.


# for me it is an important topic...i realise for others it might not be! Smile

## ...u are welcome, bro! (-:

Quote:
Okeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey guess thats enough, lets goto arcade and shoot some ET, else you will shoot me


## heck...i would miss u even with a chaingun...i always seemed to while playing quake! :-S

## salam...take care! (-:
Post Posted:
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 7:38 pm
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The
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I will just reply to the above as I need to go

firstly no confrontation in here, you stated your opinion and I stated mine then I suggested to agree to disagree

secondly, no cheering either, I could not understand what you meant but it sounded a bit not right to me

thirdly, I will continue discussing this subject and will add one more long comment when I have time, I have already finished the outlne of this comment


# i dont know what didnt sound right to u...but after going thru my own posts it did appear to me that my words sounded a bit confrontational, though that was not my intention; and that was the reason i said i will try to be a lil more on the cheerful side with my words! (-:

## i am interested in seeing what u have to offer! (-:

## take care, bro...salam! (-:
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Mon 07 Jan, 2008 7:44 pm
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AhmedBahgat
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Salam brother The and all,


As I stated earlier, I have one comment to make, firstly I agree that Jibreel has the following 3 titles:

1) Al Ruh Al Ameen (a definite noun with an Al + adjective with an Al)
2) Ruh Al Qudus (a Muddaf without an Al + Muddaf Ilaih with an Al)
3) Al Ruh

The first two titles are two words each, yet the first two titles are totally different structure regarding grammar, bear in mind that Al Qudus in the second title actually means Allah, i.e. Ruh Al Qudus means Ruh of Allah, the first title however means the honest Ruh, the last one is one word only

I left the word Ruh above untranslated, this is because the word Ruh has two meanings in Arabic and I don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t think any of these meaning apply to any of the above 3 titles:

A) Wahi (inspiration or revelation)
B) Soul

I will only discuss the first meaning as this is what is associated to the message sent to the prophets

A) An example to the first meaning of Ruh is clearly seen in the following examples:

He sends down the angels with the inspiration by His commandment on whom He pleases of His servants, saying: Give the warning that there is no god but Me, therefore be careful (of your duty) to Me.

[The Quran ; 16:2]

يُنَزِّلُ الْمَلآئِكَةَ بِالْرُّوحِ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ عَلَى مَن يَشَاء مِنْ عِبَادِهِ أَنْ أَنذِرُواْ أَنَّهُ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ أَنَاْ فَاتَّقُونِ (2)

-> See, يُنَزِّلُ الْمَلآئِكَةَ بِالْرُّوحِ , Yunazzal Al Malaika Bi Al Ruh, which means: He sends down the angels with the inspiration , in fact Allah elaborated to what Al Ruh is at the end of the verse, Give the warning that there is no god but Me, i.e. the prophets has been inspired by Allah to warn other humans that there is no God but Him, now what carried such inspiration to the humans are the angels as seen from the start of the verse: يُنَزِّلُ الْمَلآئِكَةَ بِالْرُّوحِ , Yunazzal Al Malaika Bi Al Ruh, which means: He sends down the angels with the inspiration , i.e. for Mohammed or any other prophet for that matter, all must have received the revelations via ANGELS according to 16:2, now if it is thought under Iman that Jibreel was the name of such creature who carried the inspiration to Mohammed then Jibreel must be an angel according to 16:2

Another example for the word Al Ruh to mean (The inspiration or the Revelation) is this:

Possessor of the highest rank, Lord of power: He makes the inspiration to light by His command upon whom He pleases of His servants, that he may warn (men) of the day of meeting.

[The Quran ; 40:15]

رَفِيعُ الدَّرَجَاتِ ذُو الْعَرْشِ يُلْقِي الرُّوحَ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ عَلَى مَن يَشَاء مِنْ عِبَادِهِ لِيُنذِرَ يَوْمَ التَّلَاقِ (15)

-> See, يُلْقِي الرُّوحَ , Yulqi Al Ruh, which roughly means: He makes the inspiration to lit, literally it means, He drops the inspiration, and again Allah elaborated to what is the inspiration, at the end of the verse: that he (any messenger) may warn (men) of the day of meeting., that Ruh (inspiration to warn other humans is carried by the Angels as we learnt from 16:2)

Now, if the ones who carry such inspiration from Allah are angels according to 16:2 then the following verse indicate that Al Ruh Al Ameen (As a title) is one of those angels:

193: Al Ruh Al Ameen has descended with it,

194: Upon your heart that you may be of the warners

[The Quran ; 26:193-194]

نَزَلَ بِهِ الرُّوحُ الْأَمِينُ (193)
عَلَى قَلْبِكَ لِتَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُنذِرِينَ (194)

-> Note that I left the words: الرُّوحُ الْأَمِينُ , Al Ruh Al Ameen untranslated, to highlight that in this verse it has to be the title for the entity that carried the inspiration down., can you see the link of the verb Na Za La, comes down between 16:2 and 26:193, from these two verses, Al Ruh Al Ameen must be an angel who carried the message down to the human prophet, can you also see the other link of the verb Na Za Ra, to warn between 26:194 and both 16:2 & 40:15.

Now, the following verse must confirm that Jebril is Al Ruh Al Ameen if compared with 16:193-194 above:

Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely He sent him down to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.

[The Quran ; 2:97]

قُلْ مَن كَانَ عَدُوًّا لِّجِبْرِيلَ فَإِنَّهُ نَزَّلَهُ عَلَى قَلْبِكَ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَهُدًى وَبُشْرَى لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ (97)

-> See: فَإِنَّهُ نَزَّلَهُ عَلَى قَلْبِكَ , Fainnahu Nazzalahu Ala Qalbika, i.e. for surely He sent him (Jibreel) down to your heart, compare this with 26:193-194. Al Ruh Al Ameen has descended with it, Upon your heart that you may be of the warners, now consider 16:2 He sends down the angels with the inspiration , we have to conclude the following:

1) Jibreel is Al Ruh Al Ameen who carried the inspiration to Mohammed heart
2) Jibreel must be an angel

There is actually an alleged reason of revelation to 2:97, apparently the Jews went to Mohammed and told him that there is no prophet but whom Allah must send Angels to, so they asked him who was the angel sent to him, when he replied to them by saying: Jibreel, they were not happy and claimed that Jibreel is always sent by Allah to cause wars and killings, so they claimed that he (Jibreel) is their enemy and that is why 2:97 starts with: Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely He sent him down to your heart by Allah's command,, the Jews also told Mohammed that if it was angel Michael that was sent to him, they would have followed Mohammed because Michael is always sent with mercy, that is why you read in the next verse:

Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His messengers and Jibreel and Michael, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

[The Quran ; 2:98]

مَن كَانَ عَدُوًّا لِّلّهِ وَمَلآئِكَتِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَجِبْرِيلَ وَمِيكَالَ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ عَدُوٌّ لِّلْكَافِرِينَ (98)

-> See how both Jibreel and Michael are mentioned explicitly in this verse: Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His messengers and Jibreel and Michael, I believe the reason for that is to give those who boast about Michael and degrade Jibreel a lesson that both should be respected the same by us.

What you should know also that Ahl Al Kitab tradition gives the archangel Michael four tasks:

1) To fight against Satan.

2) To rescue the souls of the faithful from the power of the enemy, especially at the hour of death.

3) To be the champion of God's people, the Jews in the Old Law, the Christians in the New Testament; therefore he was the patron of the Church, and of the orders of knights during the Middle Ages.

4) To call away from earth and bring men's souls to judgment.

Jibreel is, in contrary with his name, the angel of the Power of God, and it is worth while noting the frequency with which such words as "great", "might", "power", and "strength" occur in the passages referred to Jibreel. The Jews indeed seem to have dwelt particularly upon this feature in Jibreel 's character, and he is regarded by them as the angel of judgment, while Michael is called the angel of mercy. They attribute to Jibreel the destruction of Sodom and of the host of Sennacherib, they also regard him as the angel who buried Moses, and as the man deputed to mark the figure Tau on the foreheads of the elect.

That is why the Jews preferred that Michael to be the angel sent to Mohammed instead of Jibreel. Jibreel is one of only two angels named in the Bible. His name means strong man of God or God is my strength as explained above. He appeared by name four times: twice to Daniel to interpret the meaning of his visions:

In Daniel 8, Jibreel explains the vision of the horned ram as portending the destruction of the Persian Empire by the Macedonian Alexander the Great, after whose death the kingdom will be divided up among his generals, from one of whom will spring Antiochus Epiphanes:

15: And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16: And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

[Daniel ; 8:15-16]

In Daniel 9, after Daniel had prayed for Israel, we read:

21: Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22: And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23: At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25: Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

[Daniel ; 9:21-27]
-> See, how the above is qualified by the Quran regarding sending the angels carrying inspiration to whomever Allah wills from the humans:

He sends down the angels with the inspiration by His commandment on whom He pleases of His servants, saying: Give the warning that there is no god but Me, therefore be careful (of your duty) to Me.

[The Quran ; 16:2]

يُنَزِّلُ الْمَلآئِكَةَ بِالْرُّوحِ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ عَلَى مَن يَشَاء مِنْ عِبَادِهِ أَنْ أَنذِرُواْ أَنَّهُ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ أَنَاْ فَاتَّقُونِ (2)


Jibreel was also mentioned once to announce John the Baptist's birth to his father Zacharias:

11: And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
12: And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
13: But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14: And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15: For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16: And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
18: And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
19: And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
20: And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

[Luke 1:11-20]
-> Again, the above Bible story is qualified by the Quran:

Then the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: That Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a Word from Allah, and honorable and chaste and a prophet from among the good ones.

[The Quran ; 3:39]

فَنَادَتْهُ الْمَلآئِكَةُ وَهُوَ قَائِمٌ يُصَلِّي فِي الْمِحْرَابِ أَنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكَ بِيَحْيَى مُصَدِّقًا بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَسَيِّدًا وَحَصُورًا وَنَبِيًّا مِّنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (39)


Jibreel is mentioned for the last time in the Bible to announce the birth of Jesus to Mary:

26: And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27: To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28: And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29: And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30: And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31: And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32: He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34: Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36: And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37: For with God nothing shall be impossible.
38: And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

[Luke 1:26-38]
-> And again the same story is qualified by the Quran:

When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

[The Quran ; 3:45]

إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ (45)


From all the above compelling Bible and Quran evidences, there is no doubt that Jibreel is an angel who is sent carrying the inspiration to whomever Allah wishes from the humans

One point I would like to reply to, brother The claimed the following: # if u say god has sent angels as rasool to humankind, then it is perhaps contradicting 17:95!

Let me bring 17:94-95 to explain what brother The missed:

94: And nothing prevented people from believing when the guidance came to them except that they said: What! has Allah raised up a mortal to be a messenger?

95: Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger.

[The Quran ; 17:94-95]

وَمَا مَنَعَ النَّاسَ أَن يُؤْمِنُواْ إِذْ جَاءهُمُ الْهُدَى إِلاَّ أَن قَالُواْ أَبَعَثَ اللّهُ بَشَرًا رَّسُولاً (94)
قُل لَّوْ كَانَ فِي الأَرْضِ مَلآئِكَةٌ يَمْشُونَ مُطْمَئِنِّينَ لَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ السَّمَاء مَلَكًا رَّسُولاً (95)

-> I believe what brother missed is verse 17:94 which clearly says that the people rejected to believe because a human messenger was sent to them: And nothing prevented people from believing when the guidance came to them except that they said: What! has Allah raised up a mortal to be a messenger?, now for Mohammed to refute such claim, Allah ordered him to say: Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger., i.e. IF THERE HAS BEEN ANGELS ON EARTH WHO ARE REQUIRED TO BELIEVE VIA SUCH TEST THAT IS ENFORCED ON THE HUMANS THEN AN ANGEL MESSNGER WILL BE SENT TO THEM, 17:95 is no way denying that Allah sends Angels to the human messengers, because 16:2 told us that Allah uses the angels to carry His inspirations to the humans whom He chose to be messengers to the rest of humans


Finally, I will leave you with some conjectures regarding the angels:

The Angels
Angels were created as messengers of God. The current Injeel reveals that God created nine orders of angels:

Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominations, Principalities, Powers, Virtues, Archangels, and Angels.

Out of this order come the familiar seven Archangels which include: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Sariel, and the fallen Lucifer.

The Eighth Choir - The Archangels, The seven angels that stood before God in Revelations are considered to be the Archangels. Although it is agreed that there were seven Archangels, there has been some debate on who the seven were. Most accounts name, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, the remaining three are generally chosen from Metatron, Remiel, Sariel, Anael, Raguel and Raziel. The Archangels were the divine messengers between the humans and God. Of the nine choirs the Archangels are probably best known to us. They are the battlers of the Sons of Darkness.

Lucifer, whose ambitions were a distortion of God's plan, is known to us through the various religious teachings as the fallen angel, with the use of many names, among which are Iblis, Satan, Belial, Beelzebub, Shaitan and the Devil. This does not contradict the Quran in anyway because it seems Iblis as a Jinn was given the rank of an angel, that is why he was up there when Allah ordered the angels to prostrate to Adam and he failed to do so because he was from among the Jinn.

Historical and Literary References: Gabriel's Name means "Hero of God." Angel of Revelation and Chief Ambassador to humanity. Apart from Michael, Gabriel is the only other Angel mentioned by Name in the Old Testament. He was said to sit on the left hand side of God. In many religious, writings Gabriel has appeared as a messenger and deliverer to humanity of blessed events. Mohammed claimed that it was Gabriel (Jibreel in Islamic) who dictated to him the Koran. In Christian beliefs, Gabriel was the Angel who appeared to Mary to inform her that she would conceive and give birth to Jesus. In addition, Gabriel also appeared before Zacharias to announce that his son will be called John (the Baptist).

Salam all

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As I stated earlier, I have one comment to make, firstly I agree that Jibreel has the following 3 titles:

...

In addition, Gabriel also appeared before Zacharias to announce that his son will be called John (the Baptist).


# nice post, bro...even though i disagree with almost all of it! (-:

## i said beforehand that i do not wish to create a fitna with this...my sole purpose was to have a lil discussion over the matter (i tried discussin it wid myself, but better to get others to punch holes into ur arguments)...and i am fairly satisfied with what i have learned along the way...jazakallah to all!!

# i enjoyed this thread...it has thrown up plenty of questions which i am sure can be of useful pursuit to anybody so inclined!

## salam...take care, bros! (-:
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The wrote:
# nice post, bro...even though i disagree with almost all of it! (-:

## i said beforehand that i do not wish to create a fitna with this...my sole purpose was to have a lil discussion over the matter (i tried discussin it wid myself, but better to get others to punch holes into ur arguments)...and i am fairly satisfied with what i have learned along the way...jazakallah to all!!

# i enjoyed this thread...it has thrown up plenty of questions which i am sure can be of useful pursuit to anybody so inclined!

## salam...take care, bros! (-:


Salam brother The

I don't see any fitnah with what you raised, it may sounded as such at the beginning and this is why I tried to agree to disagree quick, however later on I found that I had to do more work, that work was mentioned in my first comment in this thread, that more Quran study is required, and Al Hamdullelah that I managed to do it, this is because what you raised still made me think that my belief about Jibreel may be wrong, but after the small study that I did, now I'm assured more than ever that Jibreel is 100% and angel, what I liked in my comment is my use of the Bible and how the Quran confirmed such stories in it, at least confirmed the possibility of such stories, for me I have far respect to the Bible than the hadith, in fact for me the Bible may prevail over the hadith in many things, I actually feel more comfortable reading the Bible than the hadith and for me most Bible Evidences must be admissible after confirming it with the Quran, EXACTLY AS WHAT THE QURAN SAID.

What I don't like about many Muslim, that they totally dismiss the Bible and the Hadith, regardless if been qualified by the Quran or not, for me I accept any evidences by anyone as long as the Quran qualified it, and in this case both the Bible and the Quran talked about Jibreel, and that is what is admissible in my books, yet all the hadith also confirms the status of Jibreel as a great angel, unfortunately, the hadith evidences can not be admissible in my books, this should tells you how I hold the Bible in far higher regard than the hadith

Salam mate

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I don't see any fitnah with what you raised, it may sounded as such at the beginning and this is why I tried to agree to disagree quick, however later on I found that I had to do more work, that work was mentioned in my first comment in this thread, that more Quran study is required, and Al Hamdullelah that I managed to do it, this is because what you raised still made me think that my belief about Jibreel may be wrong, but after the small study that I did, now I'm assured more than ever that Jibreel is 100% and angel, what I liked in my comment is my use of the Bible and how the Quran confirmed such stories in it, at least confirmed the possibility of such stories, for me I have far respect to the Bible than the hadith, in fact for me the Bible may prevail over the hadith in many things, I actually feel more comfortable reading the Bible than the hadith and for me most Bible Evidences must be admissible after confirming it with the Quran, EXACTLY AS WHAT THE QURAN SAID.

What I don't like about many Muslim, that they totally dismiss the Bible and the Hadith, regardless if been qualified by the Quran or not, for me I accept any evidences by anyone as long as the Quran qualified it, and in this case both the Bible and the Quran talked about Jibreel, and that is what is admissible in my books, yet all the hadith also confirms the status of Jibreel as a great angel, unfortunately, the hadith evidences can not be admissible in my books, this should tells you how I hold the Bible in far higher regard than the hadith


# i am glad the misunderstandings have been cleared, bro! (-:

## i am equally glad that u are now 100% certain that gabriel is an angel; i have myself found this thread pretty useful! (-:

# salam, bud...take care! (-:
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(again.. y eliminate gabriel from djinns?...maybe it is an exceptionally pious and exalted djiin? or even humans?)


Why would anyone even think that gabriel was a djinn or human? Don't they die?
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fluxion24 wrote:
Why would anyone even think that gabriel was a djinn or human? Don't they die?


# so has gabriel been afforded immortality?

...an interesting point u have made!

## ...i said to bro bmz that my understanding that gabriel is not an angel (or an archangel) is founded on the *assumption* that it is gabriel who has been referred to as "ruhalameen" and "ruhulquddoos", and it is gabriel who has been called "ruh" in certain other verses! and for me that still is the stumbling block to my conviction -- seems to be pretty well-supported, but one can never be too sure...!

# take care, bud! (-:
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