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zack
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Post subject: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

Salaam All,

Spent several hours understanding this concept in Quran and the explanation by several translators(FYI - I don't know Arabic much). There are several different opinions and interpretations, don't know which one is correct. In particular, the concept of triple Talaaq.

Anyone who knows Arabic...please help, JazakAllah in advance for the help.
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Sun 18 Apr, 2010 6:11 pm
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

zack wrote:
Salaam All,

Spent several hours understanding this concept in Quran and the explanation by several translators(FYI - I don't know Arabic much). There are several different opinions and interpretations, don't know which one is correct. In particular, the concept of triple Talaaq.

Anyone who knows Arabic...please help, JazakAllah in advance for the help.


Salaam, Zack

Are you referring to a man, who shouts Talaq three times in one go and considers Talaq done?

Personally, I believe it is against the steps given in Qur'aan. I am not too much into Islamic jurisprudence but it looks wrong to me.

However, the steps given in Qur'aan cannot be ignored. That is my frank opinion.

But then, the Mullahs know better. lol!

Salaams
BMZ
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Sun 18 Apr, 2010 6:32 pm
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

Thanks brother BMZ,

You are right, what if a man utters talaaq thrice?? Whats the right method of divorce?
BMZ wrote:
But then, the Mullahs know better.

Yeah some mullahs only know how better to confuse people Confused Confused
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Sun 18 Apr, 2010 6:45 pm
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

zack wrote:
Thanks brother BMZ,

You are right, what if a man utters talaaq thrice?? Whats the right method of divorce?

BMZ wrote:
But then, the Mullahs know better.

Yeah some mullahs only know how better to confuse people Confused Confused


Hello, Zack

If we read Surah 2:226-234, may be the Ulemas and Scholars use 2:227 to justify the Talaq in one go.

وان عزموا الطلاق فان الله سميع عليم

However, if we read Surah Talaq 65:1 part of the verse, it insists on divorce in stages by mentioning the periods. ياايها النبي اذا طلقتم النساء فطلقوهن لعدتهن واحصوا العدة

And the words الطلاق مرتان in 2:229 make it clear that after announcing divorce two times, the third will be the final and after that, there is no way, except that the woman gets married to another but he may not want to divorce her. Then what?

Salaams
BMZ
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Sun 18 Apr, 2010 8:11 pm
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

zack wrote:
Salaam All,

Spent several hours understanding this concept in Quran and the explanation by several translators(FYI - I don't know Arabic much). There are several different opinions and interpretations, don't know which one is correct. In particular, the concept of triple Talaaq.

Anyone who knows Arabic...please help, JazakAllah in advance for the help.


Salam brother Zack

Good to see you again after a while

Talaq word only appeared in the Quran in the verses posted by brother BMZ, however I believe that it is also mentioned indirectly in some other verses that I will try to find for you inshallah later today

But for now, I may tell you my own understanding to the concept of Talaq as I got it from Quran only:

Yes there are 3 times to divorce your wife, if you reached the third time then you cannot reconcile with her until sheproperly marries another man, this restriction is put in place (I believe) to make men think twice before they abuse their power in divorce, knowing in advance that if they do it for the third time, then their ex wife must mary another guy and divorce him before they can reconcile again, Muslims manipulate this restriction by hiring a guy to mary their ex then make him divorce her on the spot, possibly even without seeing her, which I believe is not right and dfies the purpose of the restriction enforced by Allah

The confused Muslims also manipulate the 3 times by dicorcing their wife three times at once, i.e. by saying to their wives that they are divorced three times, such abuse clearly violates the Quran because the Quran told us that when a problem happen between a husband and a wife, then a judge should come from her family and another judge should come from his family, then try to resolve the issue, which hardly happend with those seeking divorce, I believe that for the right count of three divorces, it should happen as follow:

1- First Divorce
2- First Reconcilation
3- Second Divorce
4- Second Reconcilation
5- Third divorce
6- Third reconcilation cannot happend until she properly marries another man and get divorced from him, and I believe this should be the case with any further divorce after the third reconcilation, i.e. if they divorce for the forth time , then she should marry another man and get divroced from him before the fourth or any subsequent reconcilation. I dont think it will be common to reach this stage, but surely it may happen, however for a husband and a wife to get divorced between them so many times only means one thing, that they should never e husband and wife between themselves.

Also do not forget that such law by Allah is not only to protect the wives from abusing divorce by their husbands, but to also protect the children who will certainly get lost and confused seeing their parents doing such childish actions. These laws were put by Allah to discourage divorce but at the same time Allah does not prohibit divorce because there might be a husband and a wife that are totally incompatible

Finally for those who want to divorce, Allah has a strong message for them, let's have a look:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ يَحِلُّ لَكُمْ أَن تَرِثُواْ النِّسَاء كَرْهًا وَلاَ تَعْضُلُوهُنَّ لِتَذْهَبُواْ بِبَعْضِ مَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ إِلاَّ أَن يَأْتِينَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ مُّبَيِّنَةٍ وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِن كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَى أَن تَكْرَهُواْ شَيْئًا وَيَجْعَلَ اللّهُ فِيهِ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا (19)
O you who have believed! It is not lawful for you that you inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take some of what you have given them unless they commit an obvious indecency. And live with them in kindness. And if you dislike them, then perhaps you dislike something that Allah makes in it abundant good.
[Al Quran ; 4:19]

-> See the great message from Allah to the husbands: And live with them in kindness. And if you dislike them, then perhaps you dislike something that Allah makes in it abundant good.

The above verse should be an admonition for all those husbands who started to dislike their wives and want to divorce them


Salam

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Mon 19 Apr, 2010 5:17 am
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

AhmedBahgat wrote:
zack wrote:
Salaam All,

Spent several hours understanding this concept in Quran and the explanation by several translators(FYI - I don't know Arabic much). There are several different opinions and interpretations, don't know which one is correct. In particular, the concept of triple Talaaq.

Anyone who knows Arabic...please help, JazakAllah in advance for the help.


Salam brother Zack

Good to see you again after a while

Talaq word only appeared in the Quran in the verses posted by brother BMZ, however I believe that it is also mentioned indirectly in some other verses that I will try to find for you inshallah later today

But for now, I may tell you my own understanding to the concept of Talaq as I got it from Quran only:

Yes there are 3 times to divorce your wife, if you reached the third time then you cannot reconcile with her until sheproperly marries another man, this restriction is put in place (I believe) to make men think twice before they abuse their power in divorce, knowing in advance that if they do it for the third time, then their ex wife must mary another guy and divorce him before they can reconcile again, Muslims manipulate this restriction by hiring a guy to mary their ex then make him divorce her on the spot, possibly even without seeing her, which I believe is not right and dfies the purpose of the restriction enforced by Allah

The confused Muslims also manipulate the 3 times by dicorcing their wife three times at once, i.e. by saying to their wives that they are divorced three times, such abuse clearly violates the Quran because the Quran told us that when a problem happen between a husband and a wife, then a judge should come from her family and another judge should come from his family, then try to resolve the issue, which hardly happend with those seeking divorce, I believe that for the right count of three divorces, it should happen as follow:

1- First Divorce
2- First Reconcilation
3- Second Divorce
4- Second Reconcilation
5- Third divorce
6- Third reconcilation cannot happend until she properly marries another man and get divorced from him, and I believe this should be the case with any further divorce after the third reconcilation, i.e. if they divorce for the forth time , then she should marry another man and get divroced from him before the fourth or any subsequent reconcilation. I dont think it will be common to reach this stage, but surely it may happen, however for a husband and a wife to get divorced between them so many times only means one thing, that they should never e husband and wife between themselves.

Also do not forget that such law by Allah is not only to protect the wives from abusing divorce by their husbands, but to also protect the children who will certainly get lost and confused seeing their parents doing such childish actions. These laws were put by Allah to discourage divorce but at the same time Allah does not prohibit divorce because there might be a husband and a wife that are totally incompatible

Finally for those who want to divorce, Allah has a strong message for them, let's have a look:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ يَحِلُّ لَكُمْ أَن تَرِثُواْ النِّسَاء كَرْهًا وَلاَ تَعْضُلُوهُنَّ لِتَذْهَبُواْ بِبَعْضِ مَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ إِلاَّ أَن يَأْتِينَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ مُّبَيِّنَةٍ وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِن كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَى أَن تَكْرَهُواْ شَيْئًا وَيَجْعَلَ اللّهُ فِيهِ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا (19)
O you who have believed! It is not lawful for you that you inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take some of what you have given them unless they commit an obvious indecency. And live with them in kindness. And if you dislike them, then perhaps you dislike something that Allah makes in it abundant good.
[Al Quran ; 4:19]

-> See the great message from Allah to the husbands: And live with them in kindness. And if you dislike them, then perhaps you dislike something that Allah makes in it abundant good.

The above verse should be an admonition for all those husbands who started to dislike their wives and want to divorce them


Salam


Love this part of the verse. It is so true.

فَإِن كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَى أَن تَكْرَهُواْ شَيْئًا وَيَجْعَلَ اللّهُ فِيهِ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا

Salaams
BMZ
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Mon 19 Apr, 2010 3:31 pm
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

Thanks brother Ahmed and BMZ, very much appreciate your reply.

Ahmed, the US immigration folks pestered the life out of me, they held my passport for 9 months and when I ask them, they said my case is under processing. After 9 months, I called them and said "Guys I need my passport back now". I have my passport with me now and will find a job elsewhere.

Spent a lot of time understanding the whole concept about divorce in Quran, little tough. Here is my final question:
If an ignorant Muslim divorces his wife thrice in one shot, will the couple have to wait for 3 months(iddath) or does the divorce takes effect immediately?

May Allah guide us always closer to the right path.
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Mon 19 Apr, 2010 11:26 pm
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

zack wrote:
Thanks brother Ahmed and BMZ, very much appreciate your reply.

Ahmed, the US immigration folks pestered the life out of me, they held my passport for 9 months and when I ask them, they said my case is under processing. After 9 months, I called them and said "Guys I need my passport back now". I have my passport with me now and will find a job elsewhere.

Spent a lot of time understanding the whole concept about divorce in Quran, little tough. Here is my final question:

If an ignorant Muslim divorces his wife thrice in one shot, will the couple have to wait for 3 months(iddath) or does the divorce takes effect immediately?

May Allah guide us always closer to the right path.


Salaams, Zack

As soon as an ignorant Muslim or a Muslim in anger divorces his wife thrice in one go, the marriage is finished and they have to keep apart and the waiting period commences immediately.

The period is basically to ensure that the divorced wife is not carrying his child.

Perhaps, Ahmed can elaborate more.

BMZ
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Tue 20 Apr, 2010 1:17 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

zack wrote:
Thanks brother Ahmed and BMZ, very much appreciate your reply.


No worries mate, BMZ and myself have over 100 years of life experience between us

zack wrote:
Ahmed, the US immigration folks pestered the life out of me, they held my passport for 9 months and when I ask them, they said my case is under processing. After 9 months, I called them and said "Guys I need my passport back now". I have my passport with me now and will find a job elsewhere.


Good to hear mate, and good luck with finding a new job, stick with Allah on a straight path and He will certainly reward you for your good deeds and patience

zack wrote:
Spent a lot of time understanding the whole concept about divorce in Quran, little tough. Here is my final question:
If an ignorant Muslim divorces his wife thrice in one shot, will the couple have to wait for 3 months(iddath) or does the divorce takes effect immediately?

May Allah guide us always closer to the right path.


No man they do not have to wait as BMZ explained that the wait is needed to make sure that she is not pregnant so we dont know who is the father, on the other hand the matter is not only knowing who is the father as with recent sience we can know who is the father, the wait is for a higher wisdom as stated in the Quran, to give a chance for their husband to reconcile after knowing that their divorced wife us pregnant with his child, see this verse:

]وَالْمُطَلَّقَاتُ يَتَرَبَّصْنَ بِأَنفُسِهِنَّ ثَلاَثَةَ قُرُوَءٍ وَلاَ يَحِلُّ لَهُنَّ أَن يَكْتُمْنَ مَا خَلَقَ اللّهُ فِي أَرْحَامِهِنَّ إِن كُنَّ يُؤْمِنَّ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَبُعُولَتُهُنَّ أَحَقُّ بِرَدِّهِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ إِنْ أَرَادُواْ إِصْلاَحًا وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكُيمٌ (228)
And the divorced women should wait for three periods; and it is not lawful for them that they conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the last day. And their husbands have right to take them back in that period if they want reconciliation. And for them (the wives) is similar rights to what is expected of them. And for the men, they have a degree over them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[Al Quran ; 2:228]

-> See: And the divorced women should wait for three periods; and it is not lawful for them that they conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the last day. And their husbands have right to take them back in that period if they want reconciliation.

Take care mate

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Tue 20 Apr, 2010 4:31 am
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

Thanks brother Ahmed and BMZ,

So that means if someone divorces his wife thrice in one shot, and after a month(or within the time of three periods), they realize that they can reconcile for good, they can revert back without any Nikah. Is that correct?

I hate to say that I don't know Arabic, I tried brother and failed miserably. Sometimes due to improper direction and sometimes due to week Imaan I guess.
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Tue 20 Apr, 2010 5:23 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

zack wrote:
Thanks brother Ahmed and BMZ,

So that means if someone divorces his wife thrice in one shot, and after a month(or within the time of three periods), they realize that they can reconcile for good, they can revert back without any Nikah. Is that correct?


I think, only if she is pregnant

Tough question btw

zack wrote:
I hate to say that I don't know Arabic, I tried brother and failed miserably. Sometimes due to improper direction and sometimes due to week Imaan I guess.


Learning Arabic has nothing to do with Iman

I think you lack confidence and patience, this is what you need to learn anything

Take care and may Allah bless you

Salam

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Tue 20 Apr, 2010 5:31 am
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

AhmedBahgat wrote:
I think you lack confidence and patience, this is what you need to learn anything

May be you are right mate, I am a little impatient and lacking confidence. I think learning Arabic is one of the best method to understand Quran. I know you said we don't need to learn Arabic if we have a very good translation at hand, but, how would anyone validate the authenticity of the translation unless he/she knows Arabic?

Take care brother...

May Allah bless you too, may HE guide us all closer to the truth.
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Tue 20 Apr, 2010 5:55 am
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

zack wrote:
I think learning Arabic is one of the best method to understand Quran.


Yes but to understand the language of Quran

But with understanding the moral of the message of Quran, I dont think anyone needs Arabic for it, any good translation should sufice

zack wrote:
I know you said we don't need to learn Arabic if we have a very good translation at hand, but, how would anyone validate the authenticity of the translation unless he/she knows Arabic?


Through ones you can trust their Arabic language knowledge

zack wrote:
Take care brother...

May Allah bless you too, may HE guide us all closer to the truth.


Likewise mate

Salam

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Tue 20 Apr, 2010 10:28 am
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

AhmedBahgat wrote:
zack wrote:
Thanks brother Ahmed and BMZ, very much appreciate your reply.


No worries mate, BMZ and myself have over 100 years of life experience between us

zack wrote:
Ahmed, the US immigration folks pestered the life out of me, they held my passport for 9 months and when I ask them, they said my case is under processing. After 9 months, I called them and said "Guys I need my passport back now". I have my passport with me now and will find a job elsewhere.


Good to hear mate, and good luck with finding a new job, stick with Allah on a straight path and He will certainly reward you for your good deeds and patience

zack wrote:
Spent a lot of time understanding the whole concept about divorce in Quran, little tough. Here is my final question:
If an ignorant Muslim divorces his wife thrice in one shot, will the couple have to wait for 3 months(iddath) or does the divorce takes effect immediately?

May Allah guide us always closer to the right path.


No man they do not have to wait as BMZ explained that the wait is needed to make sure that she is not pregnant so we dont know who is the father, on the other hand the matter is not only knowing who is the father as with recent sience we can know who is the father, the wait is for a higher wisdom as stated in the Quran, to give a chance for their husband to reconcile after knowing that their divorced wife us pregnant with his child, see this verse:

]وَالْمُطَلَّقَاتُ يَتَرَبَّصْنَ بِأَنفُسِهِنَّ ثَلاَثَةَ قُرُوَءٍ وَلاَ يَحِلُّ لَهُنَّ أَن يَكْتُمْنَ مَا خَلَقَ اللّهُ فِي أَرْحَامِهِنَّ إِن كُنَّ يُؤْمِنَّ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَبُعُولَتُهُنَّ أَحَقُّ بِرَدِّهِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ إِنْ أَرَادُواْ إِصْلاَحًا وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكُيمٌ (228)
And the divorced women should wait for three periods; and it is not lawful for them that they conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the last day. And their husbands have right to take them back in that period if they want reconciliation. And for them (the wives) is similar rights to what is expected of them. And for the men, they have a degree over them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[Al Quran ; 2:228]

-> See: And the divorced women should wait for three periods; and it is not lawful for them that they conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the last day. And their husbands have right to take them back in that period if they want reconciliation.

Take care mate


وَبُعُولَتُهُنَّ أَحَقُّ بِرَدِّهِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ إِنْ أَرَادُواْ إِصْلاَحًا

Thanks for adding that great verse, Ahmed. I had not addressed that.
And our Mullahs never refer to this.

Jazakallah

Salaams
BMZ
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Tue 20 Apr, 2010 1:42 pm
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Post subject: Re: Divorce in Quran Reply with quote  

I have a different take on this, and I believe that a single 'talaq' is sufficient.

Again, I believe that the waiting period is compulsory so that it can be ascertained that she is not carrying a child, and in case she marries another man, her new husband cannot lay a claim against her that she is carrying the previous husband's child, nor can the previous husband lay a claim to a child born after her completion of the term. Likewise, it also safeguards the rights of the previous and new husband respectively.
Post Posted:
Wed 21 Apr, 2010 1:16 am
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