Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject: what do u not like about the traditions( or traditionalists)
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
mate, the traditions are far accurate than the aloners,
# many "aloners" are non-muslims seeking to deceive...so if u mean them, then yes, in many cases traditionalists are better-informed! (-:
Quote:
I only hold a few things against the tradtions,
1) the shahada
# can u elaborate bro....or if u ve done so elsewhere, can u pass me the link? (-:
Quote:
2) their excecive praise of Mohammad over other prophets
# i think so too....i ll elaborate and add on this in the future....hopefully! (-:
Quote:
3) their abuse of polygamy
# i agree....
Quote:
that's all really
# besides that which u ve said...what i dunn like about the traditionalists is their abuse of quran and religion to suit themselves ...ofcourse, maybe not all do that....but i ve seen many do this! it's, i think, very much ike the munafiqs (who dont subscribe to the divinity of god and) who abuse and lie about quran, and about grammar and history...
but i wld expect them (traditionalists), since they do believe quran to be from god, to show less prejudice! (-:
Posted:
Mon 05 Feb, 2007 6:51 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Hello mate
It is not really a matter of like or dislike, it is a matter of their claims being quallified by the Arabic Quran, thit applies to all not just the tradtionalists
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
It is not really a matter of like or dislike, it is a matter of their claims being quallified by the Arabic Quran, thit applies to all not just the tradtionalists
# u are right bro.... (-:
but i ve created this here thread to understand where peepz (who are non-traditionalists) disagree with the traditionalists....
....specifically the traditionalists! (-:
Posted:
Thu 08 Feb, 2007 11:56 pm
KGB
Status:
Faith:
Joined: Dec 20, 2006
Posts: 4
Post subject:
I am glad to see you here TG. Mohammad Sheikh is one non traditionalists who has earned my respect because he is not trying to change Islam for the sake of any label. The websites who claim to be following Qur'an alone try to go beyond reason and logic to prove their points rejecting Salat prayers and picking up the meaning of Qur'an which suits their own desires. This includes Free Minds and Dr. Shabir Ahmad.
I don't like the violence and hatred which they have for each other sects. The traditionalists who are killing each other in Iraq, Pakistan and Lebanon can't justify all these killings. The most disgusting fact is that Sunni Shia scholars are really not doing anything to stop all this violence. Grand Ayatollah Sistani has the power to stop all this violence with one public statement but is silent.
We all know that they have the borrowed punishment laws from Old Testament.
Posted:
Sun 11 Feb, 2007 1:52 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
kgb wrote:
I am glad to see you here TG.
# and i am glad to hear from u...it's always a pleasure....do find more time for us humble folks! :-p
Quote:
Mohammad Sheikh is one non traditionalists who has earned my respect because he is not trying to change Islam for the sake of any label.
# i havent been able to get any link which has his views or write-ups...so i really know little about him! (-:
Quote:
The websites who claim to be following Qur'an alone try to go beyond reason and logic to prove their points rejecting Salat prayers and picking up the meaning of Qur'an which suits their own desires. This includes Free Minds and Dr. Shabir Ahmad.
# i ve lil doubt, bro, that most of these are munafiqs and they run websites, among other things, to engage muslims in fruitless discussions and to discredit the works of those who truly approach quran for guidance...free-minds is a good example...a while back there were some reasonable articles...but now u see it saturated with lies and manipulations of quran and grammar and a deliberate attempt to re-introduce failed theories regarding the history of islam...most of that which u see them (munafiqs among them) propogating is stuff which years back was rejected as being fantasy and abuse of facts! (-:
as for shabbir ahmed...he seems, to me, to be a lil inspired by the ahmediyya school of thought...and it's not surprising to see some of the online munafiqs and wannabes trying to put forth his translation as being highly credible! (-:
## generally speaking, i try to make out a pretender by what s/he says/writes...most of these peepz will try to pull the tradionalists down and somehow think that doing so lends their own views credibility...it is something ubiquitous in their write-ups...hard to miss!
...mind u...i am not saying (that) justly criticising somebody lowers ur own credibility...but to criticise a belief is 1 thing and to prove ur own belief credible is another thing...to lend credibility to ur own theories u need to provide something definite (in their support), and not just whine about everybody else!this is what the likes of crone did when they announced that the islamic history (through arab sources) is not dependable and it needs to be re-constructed through non-arab sources! but in doing so all they presented were lies, conjectures and abuse of facts...consequently much of their works was rubbished....and this is what i see many muafiqs do as they go about trying to revive failed theories about the origin and development of islam! (-:
Quote:
I don't like the violence and hatred which they have for each other sects. The traditionalists who are killing each other in Iraq, Pakistan and Lebanon can't justify all these killings. The most disgusting fact is that Sunni Shia scholars are really not doing anything to stop all this violence. Grand Ayatollah Sistani has the power to stop all this violence with one public statement but is silent.
# that's a very good point bro...they are blinded by hatred...they probably wont say it...but they r...atleast sum of them, i ve had a lot of experience with their hatred....atleast online! :-S
they are prejudiced in favor of, and against, certain things: if u point out an absurdity in what they say, their final resort is in saying only scholars can comment on such matters...and i do think in most cases it is either a fear of coming across something undesirable, or a desire to continue in a held belief (despite its fallacy), that keeps them from being honest to themselves! (-:
...and their "scholars" not uncommonly hold diametrically opposite views which affords the masses a high degree of convenience! : grin :
Quote:
We all know that they have the borrowed punishment laws from Old Testament.
# again a good point bro...i always wonder as to what actually is the punishment for a crime like, say, theft!
# again....nice to hear frm u buddy! take care! (-:
Posted:
Sun 11 Feb, 2007 6:45 am
KGB
Status:
Faith:
Joined: Dec 20, 2006
Posts: 4
Post subject:
Brother TG.
Mohammad Sheikh website address http://www.the-quran.org/. He has very good lectures on different topics. I watch couple of them because they are really long run for atlest 3 hours. Mohammad Sheikh explanation on Salat is the best I find so far explaining it from Qur'an.
I criticise what ever is wrong whether Dr. Shabbir Ahmad or Free Minds Progressives.
Posted:
Sun 11 Feb, 2007 9:58 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
kgb wrote:
Mohammad Sheikh website address http://www.the-quran.org/. He has very good lectures on different topics. I watch couple of them because they are really long run for atlest 3 hours. Mohammad Sheikh explanation on Salat is the best I find so far explaining it from Qur'an.
# thanks for the link bro...i hope the site has some text/readable stuff! (-:
Quote:
I criticise what ever is wrong whether Dr. Shabbir Ahmad or Free Minds Progressives.
# ...and if i remember ur posts correctly, ur criticism has substance and is constructive! (-:
Posted:
Sun 11 Feb, 2007 8:42 pm
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
okay...here is another...ummm....let me call it disagreement, with some traditionalists:
It is mentioned in the same book Ruhul Bayan that the honor given to the Prophet (s) is more than what was given to Adam (as) when the angels were ordered to respect him; whereas in the case of Rasulallah (s), Allah Himself is honoring him. In the above verse, the Prophet (s) has been addressed as the Prophet (s) and not Muhammad (s), unlike the other Prophets, who have been addressed so frequently with their names. It is due to his magnificence, nobility and utmost respect. A similar case could be cited in the following verse of the Holy Qur’an, where Prophet (s) is mentioned with Ibrahim (as): "Lo! Those of mankind who have the best claim to Ibrahim are those who followed him, and this Prophet ...."
Here too, he has been called "this Prophet" (s) rather than as Muhammad (s). The point is: Prophet (s) is addressed by his name in the Holy Qur’an, only a few times, and that is also due to some special reasons... [It is important to note that the word salat which in this verse refers to Allah, His angels and to the believers, is a common word which is used for several meanings and purposes at various places in the Holy Qur’an. The scholars give a number of explanations to the word salat used in this verse. These explanations have been given according to the positions of the personage referred to in the verse. According to some scholars "Salah ala Nabi (s)" means: To praise and respect him in order to show favor. And the praise and the respect for the Prophet (s) will differ according to the personality who sends salat (blessings). A similar difference may be noted in the meaning of the word ‘kindness.’ For instance, the kindness of a father toward his son means his affection and love for his son, while the kindness of a son toward his father reflects his respect and favor for his father. So the salat of Allah upon the Prophet (s) would mean his praise and regard for Prophet (s) with kindness and mercy; and the salat of angels would mean their praises and respect for the Prophet (s) with favor, love, sincerity, obedience and submission. Imam Bukhari narrates from Abu Aliah: "The blessings of Allah upon the Prophet (s) means His praises for the Prophet (s) before the angels; and the blessings of the angels upon the Prophet (s) means their benedictions and prayers for him." Ibn Abbas (r) said: "Yusalluna (the angels send blessings), means Yubarrikuna (the angels pray for abundance in the eminence and status of Prophet (s)"....
It is narrated in a hadith that when this verse of the Holy Qur’an was revealed, the companions of the Prophet (s) asked, ‘O Prophet of Allah! The way to offer salaams upon you has been known to us, i.e. the salaam which is recited in the attahiyat. Teach us the way to send salat. The Prophet (s) asked them to recite the following salat: "O Allah! Shower your blessings upon our master Muhammad and his descendants as you showered your blessings upon Ibrahim and his descendants: Verily you are the Praiseworthy and Glorious. O Allah! Give prosperity to our Master Muhammad (s) and his descendants as you gave prosperity to Ibrahim and his descendants; verily You are the Praiseworthy, the Glorious.
# okay....according to the author of the above article.....muhammad is the leader of the apostles, and that he has the higest station, or something like that! the author then makes a very interesting case: that in verse 3:68 abraham is called by name whereas muhammad is not called by name, rather he is called "this prophet"! the author seems to be telling us that cuz abraham and other prophets are less exalted than muhammad, they are adressed by their names, whereas muhammad, apparently due to his higher status, is seldom refered to by his name!
the author next takes us to a tradition in which the prophet taught peepz the manner of sending salat on him! interestingly enough, the tradition has words imploring god to bless muhammad and his descendants the way it did bless abraham and his descendants!
# if muhammad is so exalted that god doesnt refer to him as muhammad, and rather as nabi or rasool, then how come muhammad taught us a salawat which uses his name? how come god has referred to muhammad by his name on only a few occasions, apparently cuz he is more exalted than other apostles, yet muslims refer to him by his name thousands of times during their lives? if god doesnt refer to muhammad by his name "due to his magnificence, nobility and utmost respect", then how do the puny mortals dare do that?
## not that i have anything against muhammad...nor that i deny his eminence as the prophet and messenger of god, but when u have peepz trying to show other prophets as being "less magnificent, less noble and less respectable" than muhammad based on some absurd reasoning....then u really wonder what drives them to such despair! (-:
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You cannot download files in this forum
All times are GMT + 10 Hours Ported for PHP-Nuke by nukemods.com
