Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject: 21:33
Quote:
That's exactly what we're saying. Allah doesn't know sh t about the way the Universe works.
How can night and day swim in orbit?
Hello All,
Here is the Arabic verse:
وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ (33)
[The Quran ; 21:33]
Here is the translation to the best of my knowledge:
And He Who created the night and day and the sun and the moon, all in an orbit, swim [The Quran ; 21:33]
The verse above never mentioned all celestical bodies, the word Kul can either mean "Each one", or "All", and it should refer to what was mentioned in the same sentence, in the case of 21:33, the word Kul referes to 4 entities, "the night and day and the sun and the moon"
The problem for some is, they are not considering that the day and night also swim in an arbit, let's honetsly look at it scientfically and without any bias:
1) The moon moves in an orbit around the earth, i.e. the Quran is accurate when it said the moon swims in an otbit
2) The Sun's orbit speed around the galaxy is about 220 km/s and its orbital period is about 240 million years, i.e. the Quran is accurate when it said the sun swims in an orbit
3) If the day an night are caused by the rotating earh facing the sun all the times then the day and night also swims in an orbit which is the orbit of the earth around the sun i.e. the Quran is 100% accurate when it said that the day and night swim in an orbit
It seems that 21:33 is a scientific miracle, because it is indirectly telling us about the following:
1) the moon orbits the earth
2) the sun orbits the galaxy
3) the earth orbits the sun
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Mon 11 Jun, 2007 1:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Sun 10 Jun, 2007 12:09 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
shit wrote:
LOL !!!! So the Quran wants to clearly tell us that day and night orbit around the sun, but doesn't want to clearly tell us the earth does.
I think I said I wont debate it with anyone
well, it will be rude not to reply to shit, let me give him one chance
Yes shit, 1400 years ago the people thought that the earth is stationary, so saying directly it moves, surely will compromise the message from God, the people will say the messenger is crazy, indeed they said that too, so Allah said it in a way that will be compatibale with the past present and future whentever (now or then ) you try to find a contradiction it will be debunked
So for the people then (1400 years ago), it seemed to them as the day and night rotate around the stationary earth , i. bloody e. the day and night swim in an orbit
for the people then (1400 years ago) the moon and the sun were supposedly moving in orbits around the stationary earth, i. bloody e. the sun and moon swim in orbits.
However now (2007), the day and night (relative to the bloody earth and also part of the earth) move with the bloody earth as it swims around the sun in a bloody orbit, i. bloody e. NOW (2007), the day and night swin in an orbit with the earth around the sun
Also, NOW (2007) we know that the sun swims in an orbit around a black bloody hole in the center of the galaxy, i bloody e. NOW the sun swims in an orbit
We don't have a problem in regards to the moon, or do we?
shit wrote:
You are 100% brainwashed.
Is that your refute?
what a waste of my time
shit wrote:
Salami
Hmmm, trying to be funny mister Hampig?
AhmedBahgat wrote:
*Edit*, it seems that 21:33 is a scientific miracle, because it is indirectly telling us about the folloing:
1) the moon orbits the earth
2) the sun orbits the galaxy
3) the earth orbits the sun
I love the Quran :*)
shit wrote:
You mean, you love the fairy tales you make up about the Quran.
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Phedippedes wrote:
Hi Ahmed, thanks for your reply.
Salam Pheds, no worries
Phedippedes wrote:
Well, I call it a 'rounded course' (or curved) because I believe that according to the Quran it has a beginning an end, a highest point and is not a complete circle. Hence it it cannot be an orbit.
The Quran used one word, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????FALAK????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, nothing more and nothing less, now the Arabic word FALAK = AN ORBIT
I have never heard the description you stated according to your belief regarding the word Falak, you said :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? I believe that according to the Quran it has a beginning an end, a highest point and is not a complete circle. Hence it cannot be an orbit.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, I say, what you said has nothing to do with the Arabic word Falak
Quote:
1400 ago it was visible as if the sun moves around the stationary earth, and now we know it by science
Phedippedes wrote:
Yes and that is exactly what the Quran is describing. Hence it cannot be the galactic year.
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m really baffled why you insist in mentioning the galactic year?, 21:33 never talked about any year calculation at all, it only said that 4 entities (the sun, the moon, the night and the day) each moves in an orbit (Falak), nothing more and nothing less
1400 years ago, this is what they thought, that the earth is stationary and all those 4 entities just circulate around the earth, so 1400 years ago 21:33 stands correct
Now (2007) the science proved that each of these 4 entities moves in an orbit, again 21:33 stands correct, as you can see I stressed the word entities, this is because I careless if the night is a physical object or not, at least ir is an event that is controlled by time and location, and surely the time and location can only be the earth, therefore the nigh and day on earth can logically represent the earth, let me give you a clear example:
Currently me and you are going through at least one orbit, which is the orbit of the earth around the sun, same with my car and your car, same with the earth atmosphere, and surely same with MY AND YOU THOUGHTS, it is not like me and you will move with the earth around the sun in an orbit while my thoughts (an entity) and your thoughts (another entity) stay here waiting for about 364 earth days until we come back to it again, i.e. and logically speaking because e and you are going through an orbit around the sun at this moment (you can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t deny that bro) then my thoughts and your thoughts are going in the same orbit around the sun, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m talking logic in here
Based on the above example, the day and night on earth are two events controlled by time and location, and because the earth moves in an orbit around the sun, THEN ITS DAY AND ITS NIGHT MOVE IN THE SAME OTRBIT AROUND THE SUN, i.e. the statement of the Quran is 100% correct (logically speaking), no manipulation, no addition, and surely no deception.
Quote:
1400 years ago, it looked repeated
and now we know it will be repeated by science[/quote]
Phedippedes wrote:
Yes and that is exactly why we know the Quran could not be talking about the galactic year.
Mate, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not picking on you, possibly I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a bit stupid?, I really can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t get it why you are insisting on linking the galactic year to 21:33?, again 21:33 never talked about any year calculation.
Phedippedes wrote:
The Quran is telling the people to use the suns orbit (its stages) as such: hence the orbit the Quran is talking about cannot be the galactic year.
Hmmm, well, first of all, that is not verse 21:33, you need to bring the verse you are talking about so we can walk through it and see how you are linking the two verses, would you be kind to bring the verse of the year calculation and explain your position?
Quote:
Phedippedes wrote:
d. has a starting point and an end (and a highest point).
again, why is that?
Phedippedes wrote:
Because that's what you seem to see when you are living somewhere in the dessert in the 6th cenury.
Well the circle has no starting or ending point, so I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t get what you mean exactly?
On the other hand 1400 ago, this is exactly what they thought:
1) for the moon, its starting point when it rises, and its ending point when it sets
2) for the sun,, its starting point when it rises, and its ending point when it sets
3) for the night, its starting point is the sun set and its ending is the sun rise
4) for the day, its starting point is the sun rise, and its ending point is the sun set.
Now today (2007), I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m disputing your claim that a closed round path has a starting point and an ending point
The bottom line is this, your argument regarding the starting point and the ending point can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t be admissible because 21:33 didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t talk about any starting nor ending point nor it told us which object any of this 4 entities is going through an orbit around it, 21:33 only said that:
1) The sun moves in an orbit
2) The moon moves in orbit
3) The night moves in an orbit
4) The day moves in orbit
Now what you need to do is to prove any of the above can never be LOGICALLY true, thank you.
Phedippedes wrote:
The galactic year is the orbit the sun is in around the centre of our Galaxy.
I know mate, what I asked you is what it has to do with verse 21:33? cheers
Phedippedes wrote:
The Galactic year is not used for timekeeping by Muslims (or anybody else for that matter) and the course the sun is in according to the Quran must be used exactly for that.
Of course the Galactic year is not for the Muslims timekeeping, now I have a surprise for you matey, your underlined statement above is 100% WRONG, because the Solar Year is not for the Muslims time keeping either, you sound like those confuse Quran Aloners from www.free-minds.org who lie and say that the Solar year is the one that should be used by the Muslims for timekeeping, not the Lunar Year, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not saying you are lying like them, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m only saying that you say what they say, on the other hand I know they are liars because they claim to be Muslim, for you I doubt that you lie because you are not a Muslim so it might be a case of ignorance on your side, let me prove to you irrefutably that the Lunar Year is the one used for time keeping along with it we should use the day and night to calculate days, and 12 Lunar months to calculate the year:
In the next verse Allah is clearly telling us that He created the Sun and the Moon, however He gave us more info regarding the moon, He told us that He made it to appear in stages SO WE CAN CALCULATE THE NUMBER OF YEARS:
He it is Who made the sun a shining brightness and the moon a light, and ordained for it stages that you might know the calculation of years and the reckoning. Allah did not create it but with truth; He makes the signs manifest for a people who [The Quran ; 10:5]
هُوَ الَّذِي جَعَلَ الشَّمْسَ ضِيَاء وَالْقَمَرَ نُورًا وَقَدَّرَهُ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعْلَمُواْ عَدَدَ السِّنِينَ وَالْحِسَابَ مَا خَلَقَ اللّهُ ذَلِكَ إِلاَّ بِالْحَقِّ يُفَصِّلُ الآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ (5)
-> See, He is the One who created the sun and the moon :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? He it is Who made the sun a shining brightness and the moon a light????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, now for the moon, He made it to appear in stages also: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and ordained for it stages that you might know the calculation of years and the reckoning.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. the stages of the moon is the one that should be used in calculating the number of years, mentioning the sun here does not make it the one that is used for calculating the year, I believe it is mentioned because the stages of the moon are dependant on the amount of light reflected from the sun by the moon, very accurate indeed, the fact that the CAUSE for making the moon appears in stages was CLEARLY MENTIONED :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and ordained for it stages that you might know the calculation of years and the reckoning.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, NO ONE CAN DISPUTE THAT.
The following verse, (which the confused Quran Aloners on www.free-minds.org use to support their lie that the Muslims should use the Solar Year), will clearly prove my accusation against them that they are liars:
And We have made the night and the day two signs, then We have made the sign of the night to pass away and We have made the sign of the day manifest, so that you may seek grace from your Lord, and that you might know the numbering of years and the reckoning; and We have explained everything with distinctness. [The Quran ; 17:12]
وَجَعَلْنَا اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ آيَتَيْنِ فَمَحَوْنَا آيَةَ اللَّيْلِ وَجَعَلْنَا آيَةَ النَّهَارِ مُبْصِرَةً لِتَبْتَغُواْ فَضْلاً مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَلِتَعْلَمُواْ عَدَدَ السِّنِينَ وَالْحِسَابَ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ فَصَّلْنَاهُ تَفْصِيلاً (12)
-> The verse above never mentioned the sun to begin with, IT ONLY MENTIONED THE DAY AND NIGHT as a way of calculating the number of years :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? And We have made the night and the day two signs, then We have made the sign of the night to pass away and We have made the sign of the day manifest, so that you may seek grace from your Lord, and that you might know the numbering of years and the reckoning;????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
Therefore from the above two verses 10:5 & 17:12, (the only two verses in the Quran that mentioned how to calculate the number of years), we can only conclude that the following are used to calculate the number of Years:
1) The stages of the moon (10:5)
2) The day and night (17:12)
The sun has nothing to do with it other than the stages of the moon are dependant on it (based on the moon location relative to the earth and NOT based on the sun location relative to the earth) and also that the sun causes the day to appear but again (as a result of the earth rotation around its axis which has nothing to do with the sun location)
In the following verse, Allah clearly identified to us that the number of months since He created the heaven and earth are 12 months, He also told us that 4 of those months are sacred:
Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore be not unjust to yourselves regarding them, and fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). [The Quran ; 9:36]
إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَات وَالأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ذَلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ فَلاَ تَظْلِمُواْ فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَقَاتِلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَآفَّةً كَمَا يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ كَآفَّةً وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ (36)
-> See, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these four being sacred????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, NO WAY THERE ARE 4 SACRED MONTHS IN THE SOLAR YEAR, we know well that the 4 sacred months are in the lunar year.
Allah even made it clearer and gave us the name of one of those months, the month in which He revealed the Quran:
The month of Ramadan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks. [The Quran ; 2:185]
شَهْرُ رَمَضَانَ الَّذِيَ أُنزِلَ فِيهِ الْقُرْآنُ هُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ وَبَيِّنَاتٍ مِّنَ الْهُدَى وَالْفُرْقَانِ فَمَن شَهِدَ مِنكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ وَمَن كَانَ مَرِيضًا أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ فَعِدَّةٌ مِّنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ يُرِيدُ اللّهُ بِكُمُ الْيُسْرَ وَلاَ يُرِيدُ بِكُمُ الْعُسْرَ وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ وَلِتُكَبِّرُواْ اللّهَ عَلَى مَا هَدَاكُمْ وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ (185)
-> See, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????The month of Ramadan is that in which the Quran was revealed????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THERE IS NO MONTH CALLED RAMADAN IN THE SOLAR YEAR
From the above 4 verses, we can firmly conclude the following:
1) The days and nights are used to calculate the days
2) The stages of the moon are used to calculate the month
3) The 12 lunar month will make a year
So your argument that we use the sun to calculate the year is demolished, in fact if you want to even link the year calculation to 21:33 (which I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t agree with) then you just shot yourself in the foot, because clearly it is all about the day, night and moon if we calculate years according to Allah, and all those three entities were mentioned in 21:33, the sun is mentioned along with them because when there is no then there will be no stages of the moon as well there will be no days, only nights, as you know the night is the main theme of the universe, the days any where are only localised and depends if there is a star in the vicinity, therefore the only relation to the sun that it is in the vicinity, its location within the galaxy in its orbit is irrelevant.
Phedippedes wrote:
The only rounded course Quran could be talking about is the one that we seem to see everyday: going from east, upwards to the suns zenith, and than downwards to the west.
Quote:
No, 21:33 is talking about 4 orbits, one for the sun, one for the moon, and one the day and one for the night
Phedippedes wrote:
quot;] Yes, and the one the sun is in is the one I described. Hence the Quran is geocentric.
21:33 never described any details of each of these 4 entities orbits, I challenge you to prove your case, it is better for you and more bravely action to concede, that is what I would have done if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m in your position, I also challenge you to show me a verse in the Quran that clearly told us that the sun orbits the earth,
What you are not aware off and I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sure you will struggle to comprehend until you drop your arrogance against your God message is this: you can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t comprehend that the message of the Quran is for all humanity since the day of revelation, it hs to be logically speaking if it claims to be the last message, that for a start, secondly, whatever it says must suit all these generations without compromising the message itself, this means if the message will include mentioning physical signs then it has to say it in a way that is compatible with the people understanding at each generations, what I have noticed that it never contradict confirmed science at any stage,
Therefore 21:33 only said that those 4 entities moves in an orbit each, it never told us how the orbit looks like, it never told how big the orbit is, and certainly it never told us which object they orbit each,
1400 years ago, based on the wrong assumption that the earth is the center of the universe, the 4 statements are 100% accurate because this is what is seemed to them at the time and in fact this is what it seems today
However in today science, it is confirmed that the earth orbits the sun and the sun orbits a black hole, i.e. each one moves in an orbit, we have no problem with the moon because then and now it was known that it orbits the earth, this is strickling indeed because this is a further demolish to the year calculation argument, it is the moon that we use to calculate the year and as you admitted we have no issue regarding the moon (now and then), for the day and night, it is 100% logical as I proved to you that the day any night belong to the earth AT ALL TIMES, then if the earth moves in an orbit around the sun then me, you, my laptop, your car, my thoughts and feelings, your thoughts and feelings, saharas thoughts and feelings and the day and night move with it in an orbit around the sun, no one can deny that.
I.E. I insist that 21:33 is a miracle because surely no one would have been able ever to come with such statement that is about 20 words telling us these hard to know info (possibly easy to guess), about those 4 signs (the sun, the moon, the day and the night) that each moves in an orbit and yet stands true for 1400 years, if it was a guess then to have a guess on the day and night and the sun (we have no problem with the moon) to be moving in an orbit while (easily observing them to be acting as such as we can see today) then come with a statement to describe it and the statement is 100% accurate according to the proven science is unlikely to me.
Quote:
now the quran never detailed orbits really, it only said in less than 20 words that both those 4 entities move in an orbit each and logically speaking this is 100% true
Phedippedes wrote:
No it says a lot more, especially about the sun's course (see my previous points). These details taken together prove that the Quran is geocentric.
You are really confused if you insist that the Quran is geocentric, bring JUST ONE VERSE TO PROVE YOUR ALLEGATION
Phedippedes wrote:
This is the only rounded course that fits all Quranic criteria.
Quote:
Sorry Pheds that was total non sense
Phedippedes wrote:
Sorry, but that's simply not even an argument. I'm sure you can do better than that.
Mate, I can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t afford to keep arguing, what I can only do is provide COMPELLING quran evidences and that is what you need to do if you want to debate the Quran with me, that is what I did with you so far.
Phedippedes wrote:
Not from any orbit (not the sun's orbit nor the earths orbit); night and day are caused by spin not by any orbit or any rounded course.
I agree that they are caused by that, however why not you agree that the earth day and night logically moves with the earth in an orbit around the sun?, as I said I can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢ get it that you can separate the earth from its day and night, if the earth moves then the day and night moves with it, how simple do you want me be bro?
Phedippedes wrote:
The day and night don't move and they certainly have no mass. In order for something to be in an orbit it needs to have a mass.
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m talking logically speaking bro, prove to me that you can isolate the day and night from the earth while it orbits the sun, HOW THIS CAN POSSIBLY HAPPEN BRO?
I careless about your mass argument, certainly the day and night are mass less entities. But they are entities that can be identified by location and time.
Phedippedes wrote:
This is elementary physics.
Quote:
I'm not discussing elementary physics
Phedippedes wrote:
Yes you are, you are making claims about orbits. Orbits are part of Newtonian physics.
Fine, then this is what I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m discussing:
1) The moon moves in an orbit
2) The sun moves in an orbit
3) The Earth moves in orbit and anything belongs to the earth moves with it on that orbit, even the sound pulses on earth are moving with it in an orbit around the sun
Phedippedes wrote:
The Quran describes the wrong orbit.
21:33 never described any orbit details it only said these entities move in an orbit PERIOD, it is you who is doing suggesting a specific year calculation to 21:33
Quote:
3) The night moves in an orbit
4) The day moves in an orbit
Phedippedes wrote:
They don't. So those are wrong too.
Then prove to me that logically speaking ( I will try to imagine your logic), that while the earth moves in an orbit, its day and night will wait for it stand still, can you do that bro?
Quote:
it is only this question, are any of the above 4 claims 100% wrong?
Phedippedes wrote:
3 out of 4 are wrong.
I reject your conclusion for the following reasons, and after I present my reasons I will terminate the discussion and we just agree to disagree:
1) you say 21:33 is wrong because it says the sun moves in an orbit, while you have not proved that sun does not move in an orbit
2) you say 21:33 is wrong because it says the day moves in an orbit, while you will never be able to tell us where the day waits for the earth while it is moving in an orbit
3) you say 21:33 is wrong because it said the night moves in an orbit, while you will never be able to refute that the night we are talking about is the EARTH NIGHT, i.e. wherever the earth will be, its night is going to be with it, you just can not isolate the two logically speaking
There fore we should agree to disagree and just leave it to the public to decide, I think we have sepnt too much time on the subject which I did not accommodate for
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Yassine wrote:
Show me the aya,s
Phedippedes wrote:
Here Allah says it again: the course of the sun and the moon are something that you should see. ('Seest thou not..')
Yassine wrote:
Yep does it say the courses are signs?
Phedippedes wrote:
Yes it does and it also tells us that the movement of the sun and the moon along their 'falak' is visible.
Hello All
I wanted to make this comment for a few days to expose the clear ignorance by many kafirs who know nothing about the Arabic language.
After reading Pheds pre last comment, it is evident that this kind of ignorance runs in their blood, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not looking to cure them rather to expose their sickness to the public, that????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s all
The ignorant think when we use those Arabic words ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????أَلَمْ تَرَ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Alam Tara????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you see?????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, it has to mean literal seeing by the human eyes, LOL, what a bunch of ignornat
Of course their flawed understanding is not true, they are only ignorant with the language, in fact we can use the same words to present any of the following arguments:
1) Don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you see by eyes? (literal)
2) Don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you see by heart? (belief) (not literal)
3) Don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you see by mind? (logical) (not literal)
Many confused kafirs and Muslims accuse me of manipulating the Arabic words to suit my low desires, well, it seems this is the only thing they can come up with to refute my very strong Quran arguments that I worked hard on it, this is because I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t invent, I only use the Quran to explain the Quran, therefore, let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s see how the Quran proves what I just said about the Arabic words : ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????أَلَمْ تَرَ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Alam Tara????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you see????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? or ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Have you not seen????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????:
Have you not seen how your Lord dealt with the possessors of the elephant? [The Quran ; 105:1] أَلَمْ تَرَ كَيْفَ فَعَلَ رَبُّكَ بِأَصْحَابِ الْفِيلِ (1)
-> See the words ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????أَلَمْ تَرَ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Alam Tara????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you see????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? or ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Have you not seen????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, Allah is asking Mohammed or any believer for that matter :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Have you not seen how your Lord dealt with the possessors of the elephant?????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, of course Mohammed didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t see that with his eyes because he was born in th same year (the year of the elephant), and of course non of us (now seen it with out own eyes), there for the words ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Alam Tara????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? means ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you see (by belief) not by eyes????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. not literal
Yassine : 1
Pheds : 0
Have you not seen how your Lord dealt with Ad, [The Quran ; 89:6] أَلَمْ تَرَ كَيْفَ فَعَلَ رَبُّكَ بِعَادٍ (6)
-> Same as before, the prophet nor any of the believers have seen with the eyes how Allah dealt with Ad people, yet Allah is telling the believers: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Have you not seen how your Lord dealt with Ad????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, of course Mohammed didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t see that with his eyes because he was born years after that incident, and of course non of us (now, seen it with our own eyes), i.e. the words ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Alam Tara????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? mean ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you see (by belief) not by eyes????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. not literal
Yassine : 2
Pheds : 0
Do you not see how Allah has created the seven heavens ,~ one above another, [The Quran ; 71:15] أَلَمْ تَرَوْا كَيْفَ خَلَقَ اللَّهُ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ طِبَاقًا (15)
-> In the above verse the words ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Alam Taraw????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? should mean ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you see (by belief) not by eyes????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, because of course we can not see the other six heavens on top of the lowest heaven, and the verse clearly tell us that the 7 heavens are ON TOP OF EACH OTHER ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Tibaqa????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, therefore this message :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Do you not see how Allah has created the seven heavens ,~ one above another,????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, has to be SEEING BY HEART, this is because the believers should have believed Allah when He said the following:
Do you not see that Allah created the heavens and the earth with truth? If He please He will take you off and bring a new creation, [The Quran ; 14:19] أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللّهَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ بِالْحقِّ إِن يَشَأْ يُذْهِبْكُمْ وَيَأْتِ بِخَلْقٍ جَدِيدٍ (19)
-> In 14:19, we can clearly see the same words used with seeing the creation of the heaven and earth with truth, and of course NO HUMAN HAVE SEEN THAT, i.e. this message :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Do you not see that Allah created the heavens and the earth with truth?????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, has to be non literal, i.e. SEEING BY HEART, this is because we believe Allah when He said He created the heaven with truth, i.e. for a believer the other six heavens exist 100%, the believer can only see one (the lowest one), the others are there because they see THEM BY HEART, aren????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t they believers?
The problem is when a bunch of ignorant kafirs stick their nose in what does not belong the them, the whole guidance in the Quran message does not belong to them, only the warnings it is what they should look at
Again, no human saw how Allah created the heavens and earth with truth, i.e. the words ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Alam Tara????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, in 14:19 has to SEEING BY THE HEART, i.e. non literal
Yassine: 3
Pheds:0
7: Do you not see that Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth? Nowhere is there a secret counsel between three persons but He is the fourth of them, nor (between) five but He is the sixth of them, nor less than that nor more but He is with them wheresoever they are; then He will inform them of what they did on the day of resurrection: surely Allah is Cognizant of all things. [The Quran ; 58:7] أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَعْلَمُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ مَا يَكُونُ مِن نَّجْوَى ثَلَاثَةٍ إِلَّا هُوَ رَابِعُهُمْ وَلَا خَمْسَةٍ إِلَّا هُوَ سَادِسُهُمْ وَلَا أَدْنَى مِن ذَلِكَ وَلَا أَكْثَرَ إِلَّا هُوَ مَعَهُمْ أَيْنَ مَا كَانُوا ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا عَمِلُوا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ (7)
-> In verse 58:7, of course we can not see by the eyes that Allah ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, therefore the question :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Do you not see that Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth?????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, is SEEING BY LOGIC AND BELIEF, not by the eyes, this is because (logically speaking) a believer in Allah must SEE BY THE MIND the Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth .
Yassine: 4
Pheds:0
Seest thou not those that dispute concerning the Signs of Allah? How are they turned away (from Reality)?- [The Quran ; 40:69] أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الَّذِينَ يُجَادِلُونَ فِي آيَاتِ اللَّهِ أَنَّى يُصْرَفُونَ (69)
-> Here is a SEEING by mind (logical), 40:69 is telling us :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Have you not seen those who dispute with respect to the communications of Allah: how are they turned away?????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, now of course we can see ignorant like Pheds disputing the communications of Allah, however we did not see him by the eyes, or did we?, well I didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t even know his face. However it is logical that Pheds is doing just that (disputing Allah message) and what the believers should SEE WITH THE MIND that in their silly disputes they turn away from reality
Yassine: 5
Pheds:0
Here is a good one:
Do you not see that Allah is He Whom do glorify all those who are in the heavens and the earth, and the (very) birds with expanded wings? He knows the prayer of each one and its glorification, and Allah is Cognizant of what they do. [The Quran ; 24:41] أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يُسَبِّحُ لَهُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَالطَّيْرُ صَافَّاتٍ كُلٌّ قَدْ عَلِمَ صَلَاتَهُ وَتَسْبِيحَهُ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِمَا يَفْعَلُونَ (41)
-> The verse above is telling us :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Do you not see that Allah is He Whom do glorify all those who are in the heavens and the earth????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, oh come one mister Pheds, can we see that?, see how your ignorance is exposed?, and I mean by see in my question to you is ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????SEEING BY MIND????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
Yassine: 6
Pheds:0
Do you not see that We have sent the Shaitans against the unbelievers, inciting them by incitement? [The Quran ; 19:83] أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّا أَرْسَلْنَا الشَّيَاطِينَ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ تَؤُزُّهُمْ أَزًّا (83)
-> Now, I might ask mister Pheds who possibly posses a bionic Eye, : did you see Allah when He :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? sent the Shaitans against the unbelievers, inciting them by incitement?????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢, not really sure mister Pheds what type of bionic eye that will allow you to see Allah when He sends the Shaitans against the unbelievers, inciting them by incitement.
Yassine: 7
Pheds:0
Have you not seen the chiefs of the children of Israel after Musa, when they said to a prophet of theirs: Raise up for us a king, (that) we may fight in the way of Allah. He said: May it not be that you would not fight if fighting is ordained for you? They said: And what reason have we that we should not fight in the way of Allah, and we have indeed been compelled to abandon our homes and our children. But when fighting was ordained for them, they turned back, except a few of them, and Allah knows the unjust. [The Quran ; 2:246] أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الْمَلإِ مِن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ مِن بَعْدِ مُوسَى إِذْ قَالُواْ لِنَبِيٍّ لَّهُمُ ابْعَثْ لَنَا مَلِكًا نُّقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ قَالَ هَلْ عَسَيْتُمْ إِن كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِتَالُ أَلاَّ تُقَاتِلُواْ قَالُواْ وَمَا لَنَا أَلاَّ نُقَاتِلَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ وَقَدْ أُخْرِجْنَا مِن دِيَارِنَا وَأَبْنَآئِنَا فَلَمَّا كُتِبَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقِتَالُ تَوَلَّوْاْ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً مِّنْهُمْ وَاللّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِالظَّالِمِينَ (246)
-> See mister Pheds, the prophet, you, Yassine, and myself, lives thusands of years after Moses, however the verse above is asking the believer: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Have you not seen the chiefs of the children of Israel after Musa, when they said to a prophet of theirs: Raise up for us a king, (that) we may fight in the way of Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, but possibly you managed to see that using your Bionic Eye,
Yassine: 8
Pheds:0
Have you not seen him who disputed with Ibrahim about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom? When Ibrahim said: My Lord is He who gives life and causes to die, he said: I give life and cause death. Ibrahim said: So surely Allah causes the sun to rise from the east, then make it rise from the west; thus he who disbelieved was confounded; and Allah does not guide aright the unjust people. [The Quran ; 2:258] أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الَّذِي حَآجَّ إِبْرَاهِيمَ فِي رِبِّهِ أَنْ آتَاهُ اللّهُ الْمُلْكَ إِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّيَ الَّذِي يُحْيِي وَيُمِيتُ قَالَ أَنَا أُحْيِي وَأُمِيتُ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ يَأْتِي بِالشَّمْسِ مِنَ الْمَشْرِقِ فَأْتِ بِهَا مِنَ الْمَغْرِبِ فَبُهِتَ الَّذِي كَفَرَ وَاللّهُ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ (258)
-> Same as the previous verse nor Mohammad or any believer for that matter saw Ibrahim, therefore the question :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Have you not seen him who disputed with Ibrahim about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom?????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, has to be seeing by heart, i.e. non literal
Yassine: 9
Pheds:0
From all the above we can conclude the following:
1) Mister Pheds is a clear cut ignorant regarding the Quran and the Arabic language
2) Yassine has knocked out Pheds silly argument regarding seeing by the eyes and the Quran confirmed Yassine simple argument
3)The GAME is OVER for Pheds
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